Maker Pro
Maker Pro

What's a GOOD color, low cost, flat panel TV ...reliably work for awhile?

R

RobertMacy

Jan 1, 1970
0
IME, caps, drive fets and, sometimes, cold solder connections
(esp on things like transformers/coils).

Having a programmable multi-output lab supply on hand can make
it easy to decide if it's even *worth* fixing many devices
(e.g., discover the screen has been "invisibly damaged")


If you look, carefully, at the boards, you'll often see devices are
not derated adequately. I've encountered several "disposable"
devices wherein the components were actually *under* spec -- e.g.,
10V caps on 12V supplies. Works OK... for a while. A *short*
while! :-/

When recapping, always opt for 105C, ~5000hr parts (assuming you want
to keep the device and not have to repeat the exercise, again!)


Is there a 'recapping kit' for my Element?
Element Electronics ELGFT401


You mentioned how youu 'listen' to a film on TV. We have two complaints
with this Element's sound:
1. Volume control is weird! adjustable from 0 through to 100. sometimes
films and shows are too loud at 1, and considering 0 is mute, not so good.
2. [may not be fault of TV, but could be the 'conversion' process] turn
volume up to 18 or 20 and it still sounds like everybody is mumbling,
barely hear the dialogue, hang on every word and THEN...music! or action
scenes erupt! and it's like that ad for audio systems where your hair is
blown straight back away from the set, big ouch! Instantly have to turn
volume down to 2 or 3, then when dialogue starts it's back up to 20 to try
and understand. Doesn't seem to be good sound balance in today's feature
films.

The reason I suggest conversion process is because after changing to the
Element TV and having become used to an old analog TV with the 'free'
converter, the volume/sound seemed to have different characteristics. this
sometimes included an 'echo' effect in those 'transition' scenes, not too
close, not too far away, just transition scenes. Distinctly hear an echo
in the sound.

Any comments about which produce better sound? Samsung, Vizio, or others?
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
RobertMacy said:
Or, Samsung 'admits' it better than others?

No, from what I heard the sets die or operation becomes erratic. The
kits are aftermarket, usually from other vendors. To me this is not
acceptable and I won't buy.

Is there a 'recapping kit' for my Element?
Element Electronics ELGFT401

If you suspect bad caps it may be best to find replacements for all the
big electrolytics in there. Low ESR, large enough ripple rating, the
good stuff.

Another problem with some consumer TV gear is poor heat-sinking. Just
had a modulator die. Someone thought it was a good idea to "heat-sink" a
DPAK burning two watts into about one square-inch of Chinese 1/4oz
copper that you could almost see through. Now there is a fairly massive
copper plate and even that gets to almost 60C.
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
We bought a Vizio many years ago. Works flawlessly, great picture,
decent price. It's 37" but that was because it's sufficient for us and
we wanted it in a space where there wouldn't have been much more room
for a larger TV. Neighbors then bought a much bigger version of this TV,
also happy.

Sam's Club sells Vizio, my wife frequents Sam's club way to often and
knows the staff well. She ask what brand to get and was told don't get
Vizio because the get way more returns with Vizio than any other brand.
I do need to qualify that with, I think they sell way more Vizio than
any other brand.
I think Panasonic has become a quality brand. It didn't start that
way, when I started repair in 73" it was low end, but not anymore.
There's always Sony, if you want to pay for it.
Mikek
 
R

RobertMacy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam's Club sells Vizio, my wife frequents Sam's club way to often and
knows the staff well. She ask what brand to get and was told don't get
Vizio because the get way more returns with Vizio than any other brand.
I do need to qualify that with, I think they sell way more Vizio than
any other brand.
I think Panasonic has become a quality brand. It didn't start that
way, when I started repair in 73" it was low end, but not anymore.
There's always Sony, if you want to pay for it.
Mikek

Very true 0.1% of 100,000 units looks far worse than 1% of 100 units. It
would be nice to see 'failures per unit sold' number.

Hmmm, someone else mentioned they had a Panasonic 2yrs [1 yr out of
warranty] with a dead power supply which Panasonic repaired as though it
were in warranty and they had to go some 100 miles to do so. GE did
something similar for our built-in microwave: out of warrantee, but sent
the replacement part, complementary. I lean toward the people who support
post-warranty on products. I don't understand a 'rigid' cutoff. Why not
help people who at least ask? has to be cheaper than those expensive
advertising budgets and goes a lot further [in my estimation]

I shy away from Sony since the old 'beta' days, just seemed too greedy for
me. Someone also mentioned Hitachi for supplying service manuals to
dealers to provide support/service anywhere. I like the idea of being able
to obtain a service manual just in case the thing lives a LONG time.
 
R

rickman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam's Club sells Vizio, my wife frequents Sam's club way to often and
knows the staff well. She ask what brand to get and was told don't get
Vizio because the get way more returns with Vizio than any other brand.
I do need to qualify that with, I think they sell way more Vizio than
any other brand.
I think Panasonic has become a quality brand. It didn't start that
way, when I started repair in 73" it was low end, but not anymore.
There's always Sony, if you want to pay for it.
Mikek

A friend has a Sony set and it has a buzz in the speaker, very annoying.
I would have returned it for a refund the next day but some people
just don't.

I'm no fan of Sony at all, not just because of this either.
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Robert,

Or, Samsung 'admits' it better than others?

Or, there are more Samsung sets than others. Or, more people want to
hold onto their Samsung while other vendors products are freely
discarded ("not worth holding onto"), etc. Or, the folks who buy
the other sets tend not to be technically inclined? Or...

I had a gorgeous JVC CRT TV that I kept running for 20+ years.
The picture was just fantastic -- esp the reds. Despite the
fact that I could easily replace it with something "current".
Is there a 'recapping kit' for my Element?
Element Electronics ELGFT401

All the recapping kit does is gather up all the components
for you in a nice poly bag. With a (very) little effort,
you can sort out which components *are* bad, are *likely*
bad and will potentially *become* bad. A pad and a pen are
your friends, here. :>

When I was recapping LCD's & TVs for a local nonprofit, I
didn't even bother trying to "stock" common parts. Just
gut the failed unit, get out a magnifying glass and write
down component values. By checking manufacturer(s) of the
failed and nonfailed components, you could sort out which
*other* components you'd want to replace while you had
the unit disassembled.

[IME, the disassembly and reassembly was the most tedious,
time consuming and error prone part of the process: "Crap,
I forgot to put this screw in..." "Damn, broke off a little
plastic tab." "Argh, forgot to plug the speakers back in..."]

FWIW, having a place where you can *set* these things in their
disassembled state is *really* golden! Trying to gather up
all the parts and put them in a nice pile and HOPE they don't
get lost (or mixed in with the parts from other units) just
leads to frustration down the road: "Why is this one screw so
much longer than all the rest??"
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Mike,

Sam's Club sells Vizio, my wife frequents Sam's club way to often and
knows the staff well. She ask what brand to get and was told don't get
Vizio because the get way more returns with Vizio than any other brand.
I do need to qualify that with, I think they sell way more Vizio than
any other brand.

That would agree with my observations. I don't think I'd consider
Vizio a "Cadillac". More like a Chevy (in terms of popularity
and sterotyped quality). As to whether its a high-end Chevy or
a sh*tbox Chevy... <shrug>

[I've got a 46" Vizio sitting here waiting for me to look at its power
supply]
I think Panasonic has become a quality brand. It didn't start that
way, when I started repair in 73" it was low end, but not anymore.
There's always Sony, if you want to pay for it.

I purchased two Sony products ~30 years ago. One was broken,
"out of the box" (though we didn't notice that particular aspect
of it until AFTER having mailed in the "registration card").
Some 90+ days later, we got it back from the depot (vendor
wouldn't swap it out for us because we had already "registered"
the purchase). By that time, the second device had also failed.

I've never purchased a Sony product since!

Their TV's (CRT) always used house numbered parts -- esp for the HOT,
etc. Made them annoying to repair (hey, I don't do this for a living
so I have no incentive to chase down "potential alternates"). So,
I wouldn't touch a Sony product.

One thing in their favor is that they (used to?) make complete
service manuals available for their products (not true of many
vendors). So, you could look at a drawing and determine that
it would likely be a waste of time to open the case on a product
given a particular set of symptoms (and likely cause).
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Robert,

Hmmm, someone else mentioned they had a Panasonic 2yrs [1 yr out of
warranty] with a dead power supply which Panasonic repaired as though it
were in warranty and they had to go some 100 miles to do so. GE did
something similar for our built-in microwave: out of warrantee, but sent
the replacement part, complementary. I lean toward the people who
support post-warranty on products. I don't understand a 'rigid' cutoff.
Why not help people who at least ask? has to be cheaper than those
expensive advertising budgets and goes a lot further [in my estimation]

Keeping a customer is a lot less expensive than *getting* a
customer! Companies seem to have forgotten that...

I loved all of my JVC kit (primarily video). Reasonably good
quality ("value for money"). Reliable. Stood the test of time, etc.

They supported *customers* (not just service depots) by making
service manuals available. *And*, you could call the factory
and speak with a technician: "For that particular model, you
should look at X, Y and Z. In fact, we have a service bulletin
that suggests upgrading U23 on all warranty repairs so you might
want to do that while you have the case off. We sell a parts
kit for that or you can just buy the individual components from
a local retailer. Thanks for calling!"

IIRC, the SM for my "HiFi" VCR was almost 3/8" thick -- lots
of full color fold-outs, schematics, test/alignment procedures,
etc.

When I purchased the VCR, I noticed a visual artifact that was
always present in recordings I made. It would occur at the
point where I "spliced" a second recording onto the end of
an existing recording (i.e., the very short "overlap" portion
of the media).

I complained about this and returned the unit. It came back
a short while later and the "problem" still existed. I returned
it again and they sent me a *new* unit (to replace my existing
*new* unit). It *also* had this problem. I later learned it
was essentially a consequence of the technology (oops!). Yet
JVC never tried to "bullshit" me about it: "OK, we fixed it
once. Now we'll just give you a NEW one."

OTOH, there is a bug in the Nakamichi Dragon's tape counter.
Essentially, a race between two subsystems that can easily
get out of sync.

The tape deck "reverses" the tape motion when it reaches the
end of "side A" -- to play "side B"! Think of this as "forward
play" and "reverse play" (there are actually two play buttons
on the deck pointing in different directions)

So, while forward playing, the tape counter counts *up*. When it
reaches the end of the "forward" side, it begins reverse playing
and the counter counts back *down*. In theory, eventually reaching
the same value that you started with when you began the "forward
play".

However, if you manually eject the tape *after* it has reached the
end of forward play, manually flip the tape over (so the "back"
side is now ready to be "forward played") and manually press
"forward play", the tape will MOVE in the forward direction -- but
the counter will count in the *backward* direction.

[Note that this is related to the timing of your actions. If you
vary them, the results vary. I.e., there's a race somewhere]

Can you spell "bug"?

Talk to the manufacturer and they will tell you it's *supposed*
to work this way!

"Really? OK, let's pretend I'll buy that explanation. That there
is some value to this. Then, why doesn't it *repeatably* behave
this way? And, how could that possibly make sense if I have
ejected the tape and placed some *other* tape in the deck? Why
should the deck 'count backwards' for this other tape that I
am playing 'forwards'? I.e., you've got a bug *somewhere* and
you just don't want to acknowledge it..."
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Hi Robert,



Or, there are more Samsung sets than others. Or, more people want to
hold onto their Samsung while other vendors products are freely
discarded ("not worth holding onto"), etc. Or, the folks who buy
the other sets tend not to be technically inclined? Or...

I had a gorgeous JVC CRT TV that I kept running for 20+ years.
The picture was just fantastic -- esp the reds. Despite the
fact that I could easily replace it with something "current".


All the recapping kit does is gather up all the components
for you in a nice poly bag. With a (very) little effort,
you can sort out which components *are* bad, are *likely*
bad and will potentially *become* bad. A pad and a pen are
your friends, here. :>

Careful. I don't know if the re-capping guys expend this much effort but
sure hope so: Besides capacitance, voltage and size one must pay a lot
of attention to things such as required ripple current spec and ESR.
Since that can't be gleaned from schematics that are usually not
furnished anymore this is not a trivial task.

I learned this the hard way as a kid. Had a major capacitor bank,
330uF/450V each or so. The amp I just built worked great so I tried it
at full bore, 1200 watts output, meaning around 2000W drawn from this
capacitor bank. At some point the fluorescent lamps in my room dimmed
briefly. Wait a minute, there is no dimmer here, so what on earth ...
*PHOOOMP* ... THWOCK ... chingalingaling .... phssss. The cap became a
spacecraft, roared by just inches past my right eye, made a crater in
the ceiling plaster, landed, hissed out on the carpet and left a major
burn spot.

[...]
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Joerg,

Don Y wrote:

Careful. I don't know if the re-capping guys expend this much effort but
sure hope so: Besides capacitance, voltage and size one must pay a lot
of attention to things such as required ripple current spec and ESR.
Since that can't be gleaned from schematics that are usually not
furnished anymore this is not a trivial task.

Most of the crud you will encounter in consumer kit "bottom feeds".
So, just plan on buying "high quality" components and, chances are,
you've got them beat. E.g., I tend towards 25 & 35V Panny FR & FM
series parts (relying on memory, here, so I may have mixed up my
alphabet soup). Seeing a 16V part usually raises my eyebrows a
bit -- unless it's on a 5V supply, etc. Safer to just use 25 & 35.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Hi Joerg,



Most of the crud you will encounter in consumer kit "bottom feeds".
So, just plan on buying "high quality" components and, chances are,
you've got them beat. E.g., I tend towards 25 & 35V Panny FR & FM
series parts (relying on memory, here, so I may have mixed up my
alphabet soup). Seeing a 16V part usually raises my eyebrows a
bit -- unless it's on a 5V supply, etc. Safer to just use 25 & 35.

Yep, Panasonic is usually good. But you have to keep the glasses on.
There was a counterfeit brand that looked deceptively similar, except
that the brand was "Panasonc". Probably from Uncle Chen's electrolytics
kitchen. Another problem is the tendency of SMPS designers to max out
their parts to the hilt. If a datasheet says 1.9A ripple they may use it
at 1.85A and 90% of rated voltage. Then one sunny day .. *PHUT* ...
gone. I've had situations like that where it was next to impossible to
obtain a cap with some better margins in the same form factor. I had to
mount a larger one off-board which is always a white-knckle ride with
switchers. Sadly, I have seen this trend also with seasoned SPMS designers.
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Robert,

Is there a 'recapping kit' for my Element?
Element Electronics ELGFT401

Dunno. Search engines are your friend. I've usually just "inspected"
whatever it is that I am working on (e.g., many products don't have
service manuals readily available) and made educated guesses as to what
(beyond the obviously failed) is likely to fail in the future.
You mentioned how youu 'listen' to a film on TV.

Yes. I tend to use the TV for background noise, "late night company",
etc. Esp if I already know the movie/program that's "on". Just
monitor the audio semiconsciously...
We have two complaints with this Element's sound:
1. Volume control is weird! adjustable from 0 through to 100. sometimes
films and shows are too loud at 1, and considering 0 is mute, not so good.

Is there a noticeable difference between 1 and 100? I.e., is there
a wide *range* of volumes or is it a very narrow range?

If the audio is completely integrated, then you probably don't
have much choice, here. OTOH, if there is a line level output
*inside* the set that gets routed to a separate amplifier, you
could possibly add a pad between the two, alter the values of
a voltage divider, etc. (half of the divider may, in fact, be
missing/open so you see much higher levels into the amp
than intended!)

What if you hang an external audio amp (e.g., the AUX input on a
"stereo") on the line out (if you have one). Does it behave better?
2. [may not be fault of TV, but could be the 'conversion' process] turn
volume up to 18 or 20 and it still sounds like everybody is mumbling,
barely hear the dialogue, hang on every word and THEN...music! or action
scenes erupt! and it's like that ad for audio systems where your hair is
blown straight back away from the set, big ouch! Instantly have to turn
volume down to 2 or 3, then when dialogue starts it's back up to 20 to
try and understand. Doesn't seem to be good sound balance in today's
feature films.

It's called dynamic range. You are supposed to LIKE this! :-/
Invest in a (external) compressor? :<
The reason I suggest conversion process is because after changing to the
Element TV and having become used to an old analog TV with the 'free'
converter, the volume/sound seemed to have different characteristics.
this sometimes included an 'echo' effect in those 'transition' scenes,
not too close, not too far away, just transition scenes. Distinctly hear
an echo in the sound.

DTV will prove to be the biggest screw up of the 21st century! :<
Audio/video sync problems, dropouts/pixelation, etc.

I point to the towers just up the hill from us and ask folks to
explain why *this* channel comes in, but *that* one doesn't, etc.
(No, I'm not interested in technical explanations. Rather, thinking
of how Joe AverageViewer tries to make sense of it all)

At least with analog TV, you could understand that distant signals
*tended* to have more snow, etc. (all else being equal).
Any comments about which produce better sound? Samsung, Vizio, or others?

I think that will be a tough one for you to evaluate -- esp if you
don't intend to add supplemental speakers, amplification, etc.
Most of the flat screen TVs don't have much volume to set aside for
sound reproduction. You want to be able to move lots of *air*
and that's hard without a large diaphragm. And, even acoustic
suspension speakers (drivers) want *some* air mass behind them to
support the cone.

[Old CRT TVs usually had gobs of empty space in their chassis so
they could put a decent speaker (or three) in the cabinet]

Neighbor went through three TVs because she didn't like the sound.

I think a big problem lies in how you preview these devices in
today's retail outlets. So much ambient noise that they've got
to crank the sound up on the TV just to hear it. And, hope
someone isn't listening to the set next to this one!

It may be smart to shop around for the right *previewing*
environment. Maybe a smaller store or one with less foot
traffic. Or, some "low traffic" time of day so you can
have an environment closer to what you will encounter at
home (unless, of course, you are accustomed to large crowds
milling around in your living room while you watch TV! :> )

And, maybe put "return policy" high on your list of vendor
selection criteria?
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
Exactly. The ESR of electrolytics goes down with increasing
temperature at about a 10:1 change in ESR between 20C and 100C.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/Electrolytic-cap-test/>
Note that the flat lines in some of the graphs for low value caps were
due to higher capacitive reactance at 100Khz than the ESR.

The 10:1 change is why some computers, monitors, TV's, can run forever
with bulging or volcanic electrolytics, but refuse to turn back on
after being unplugged and allowed to cool.

It should be possible to find the culprit using a heat gun or hair
dryer. Afterwards it might be good to also change the other large
electrolytics of same make because it could be only a matter of time
until they also go.

Recalcitrant start-up can also have another reason. Unlikely in this
case but good to remember when that happens on PCs and the like:
Flybacks and other primary side switchers usually have a trickle
circuit. A resistor of 100k or so charges a cap and when that has
reached a certain voltage the circuit starts up. It has to start within
a certain time and begin to feed itself from a helper winding, else the
little reservoir cap is depleted below the lower hystersis value of the
switcher chip and it starts all over again. This can result either in no
operation of the device at all or it "chugs and chokes". Sometimes this
resistor has become high-Z, sometimes the reservoir cap is toast.
 
G

Greegor

Jan 1, 1970
0
JT > We have a 55" JVC. Great picture, but
JT > cantankerous when dealing with HDMI
JT > inputs that don't conform to the
JT > HDMI CEC specification.

Jim, lots of these newer TV sets have
software updates available VIA the
makers website.

Typically you download the update and
place it on a flash drive, then plug
the flash drive into the TV and hit
some combination of settings and it
loads into the TV.

It's a bit like updating the BIOS
on some computer systems.

Try looking on the makers site for
software updates for your exact
model of TV.
 
Sam's Club sells Vizio, my wife frequents Sam's club way to often and
knows the staff well. She ask what brand to get and was told don't get
Vizio because the get way more returns with Vizio than any other brand.
I do need to qualify that with, I think they sell way more Vizio than
any other brand.
I think Panasonic has become a quality brand. It didn't start that
way, when I started repair in 73" it was low end, but not anymore.
There's always Sony, if you want to pay for it.
Mikek

Very true 0.1% of 100,000 units looks far worse than 1% of 100 units. It
would be nice to see 'failures per unit sold' number.

Hmmm, someone else mentioned they had a Panasonic 2yrs [1 yr out of
warranty] with a dead power supply which Panasonic repaired as though it
were in warranty and they had to go some 100 miles to do so. GE did
something similar for our built-in microwave: out of warrantee, but sent
the replacement part, complementary. I lean toward the people who support
post-warranty on products. I don't understand a 'rigid' cutoff. Why not
help people who at least ask? has to be cheaper than those expensive
advertising budgets and goes a lot further [in my estimation]

That was I. However, note that Panasonic is apparently getting out of
the consumer business, particularly consumer level TVs. They're not
competing against the Koreans and Chinese, rather attempting to move
upscale.
I shy away from Sony since the old 'beta' days, just seemed too greedy for
me. Someone also mentioned Hitachi for supplying service manuals to
dealers to provide support/service anywhere. I like the idea of being able
to obtain a service manual just in case the thing lives a LONG time.

I refuse to buy anything Sony. The rootkits were the last straw.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Really? OK, let's pretend I'll buy that explanation. That there
is some value to this. Then, why doesn't it *repeatably* behave
this way? And, how could that possibly make sense if I have
ejected the tape and placed some *other* tape in the deck? Why
should the deck 'count backwards' for this other tape that I
am playing 'forwards'? I.e., you've got a bug *somewhere* and
you just don't want to acknowledge it..."

Counters are the wrong way to do it, just measure the wound radius of both
spools. (hint: use the tape to measure the circumference)
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Jasen,

Counters are the wrong way to do it, just measure the wound radius of both
spools. (hint: use the tape to measure the circumference)

We're talking about 1980 technology (actually, other manufacturers
had "time display" counters... you weren't buying a "tape counter
display if you bought a Dragon :-/ ).

I've actually never used a tape counter for anything other than
"returning to a certain point" (0000).
 
C

Charlie E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Back in the days before DTV, they did some experiments with different
formats on several displays setup. They had different resolutions,
dot pitches, sizes, etc. They then asked folks which displays they
liked better. What factor was most important in display appreciation?

The sound quality!

;-)
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Charlie,

Back in the days before DTV, they did some experiments with different
formats on several displays setup. They had different resolutions,
dot pitches, sizes, etc. They then asked folks which displays they
liked better. What factor was most important in display appreciation?

The sound quality!

;-)

<frown> Then you get older and are more concerned with how visible
the SUBTITLES are! :-/

(Given the prevalence of the audio/video sync problems, it's almost
easier to *read* the dialogue -- and avoid noticing the annoying
"lips moving without sound coming out" issue!)

I wonder if there is an easy way to resync the audio and video
(at least in recorded material?)
 
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