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What's that black dust in monitors?

D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
You dont get that 'flowing out of some thunderstorms'

You sure as hell do; lightning is one source of the stuff!
Pity it doesnt end up brown at all at that concentration.


Yes, but not at 1 PPM it aint, even thru 4 miles of it.

Same amount of NO2 that light has to pass through!
Irrelevant to what air with 1 PPM looks like.


Thats utterly mangled too.

No, it's your knowledge of chemistry that is mangled.
And at 1 PPM it aint even visible.

Until you look through a couple miles of it.

"Brown Cloud" air pollution is nitrogen dioxide or nitrogen dioxide plus
carbon particles fine enough to make things seen through the cloud look
brownish due to scattering preferentially of blue light.

One source saying nitrogen dioxide plus fine carbon particles:
http://phoenix.about.com/library/weekly/uc051601a.htm

Another source saying nitrogen dioxide is responsible for "brown cloud"
urban air pollution:
http://phoenix.about.com/library/weekly/uc051601a.htm

Just the first two hits of a Google search of "brown cloud" "nitrogen
dioxide"! A few other hits whose summaries reported by Google appear to
support nitrogen dioxide, whether alone or with really fine carbon
particles, making air look brownish:

http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html
http://www.niwa.cri.nz/pubs/an/16/airshed.htm
http://www.adeq.state.az.us/environ/air/browncloud/download/edu/0821shw.pdf
http://www.adeq.state.az.us/environ/air/browncloud/download/2000-3.pdf
http://www.wyvisnet.com/interpreting.html
http://www.ccpo.odu.edu/SEES/ozone/class/Chap_10/10_2.htm
You dont see that rising either.

Are you calling me a liar? When it is visible, the finer stuff easily
visibly rises!
Dont believe it.

Looks like you haven't paid attention to a few on the road!
Thats just smoke, not the jet black soot being discussed.

So you say diesel trucks produce smoke other than soot and other than
the gray "oil burning" stuff? And what else has a "gray-transparent" look
when seen through and when finer, has a "diluted-milk-grayish-blue" but
darker when illuminated by sunlight?

I can make soot fine enough to look bluish when illuminated by a bright
flashlight by running a propane torch with the air intake holes blocked.
I just tried that! Are you going to say that propane can make ash or tar
particles?
Pity it aint the jet black soot being discussed.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Until you look through a couple miles of it.


True, and the :clouds" of it are at more than 1 ppm as well.

The guy is simpleton loon.
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can make soot fine enough to look bluish when illuminated by a bright
flashlight by running a propane torch with the air intake holes blocked.
I just tried that! Are you going to say that propane can make ash or tar
particles?


We used to call those little floaty guys "dead soldiers". It is a
common term in refrigeration circles as they "torch lines" on a
regular basis.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Klipstein said:
Rod Speed wrote
You sure as hell do; lightning is one source of the stuff!

I meant a layer of air 4 miles thick
doesnt 'flow out of some thunderstorms'
Same amount of NO2 that light has to pass through!

Still aint brown at 1PPM, even thru 4 miles of it!
No, it's your knowledge of chemistry that is mangled.

Bullshit. You dont ever get 'just two NO2 molecules
stuck together more than being a different compound)'

Fantasyland chemistry.
Until you look through a couple miles of it.

It still aint brown even thru a couple of miles of it.
"Brown Cloud" air pollution is nitrogen dioxide or nitrogen dioxide
Wrong.

plus carbon particles fine enough to make things seen through
the cloud look brownish due to scattering preferentially of blue light.

Particles of many kinds, actually. Doesnt have to be carbon.

Its that that produces the spectacular red sunsets with major fires.
One source saying nitrogen dioxide plus fine carbon particles:
http://phoenix.about.com/library/weekly/uc051601a.htm

Its wrong. Basic physics. Steve clearly aint gotta clue and his
'credentials' are complete duds as far as physics is concerned.
Another source saying nitrogen dioxide is
responsible for "brown cloud" urban air pollution:
http://phoenix.about.com/library/weekly/uc051601a.htm

Thats the same one.
Just the first two hits of a Google search of "brown cloud" "nitrogen dioxide"!

Nope, just one actually. And plenty of pig ignorant shit turns up on the web.
A few other hits whose summaries reported by Google
appear to support nitrogen dioxide, whether alone or
with really fine carbon particles, making air look brownish:

We'll see.

The first para of that says

Extremely small particles are the principal cause of the brown cloud.
These tiny particles, too small to be seen without a microscope, are
measured in microns, with one micron equal to about one-seventieth
(1/70) of the diameter of a human hair. Particulate matter less than
2.5 microns, often referred to as PM2.5, is a significant cause of haze.
Each particle, about the size of a single grain of flour, can float in the
atmosphere for days, behaving much like a gas. Over half of the
PM2.5 in Phoenix is caused by the burning of gasoline and diesel fuel
in vehicles (sometimes referred to as on-road mobile sources) and in
off-road mobile sources, such as construction equipment like loaders
and bulldozers, locomotives, lawn mowers, leaf blowers, and other
devices that emit air pollution as they move1. PM2.5 particles containing
carbon, like soot from tail pipes, are particularly effective in reducing
visibility, because they both scatter and absorb light.

Which is exactly what I said, using a lot more words.

Doesnt say that the brown is primarily NOx

Doesnt say that the brown is primarily NOx

Pure political bullshit.

3. Is it a brown cloud day? A brown cloud appears to envelop
the scene but quickly thins out at higher elevations. Look at
the particle and black carbon levels -- they are usually high.
Ozone will be low and relative humidity may vary.

Doesnt say a damned thing about NOx
being the cause of a visible brown haze.

Try again.
Are you calling me a liar?

Nope, you just havent got a clue about the basics.
Those dont rise like say smoke from a fire does.
When it is visible, the finer stuff easily visibly rises!

Not far. THATS what matters.
Looks like you haven't paid attention to a few on the road!

Looks like you aint gotta clue about what's being
discussed, whether that stuff rises that much.
So you say diesel trucks produce smoke other than soot

A properly setup diesel engine does just that. Its only the badly
setup trucks that generate high levels of the jet black soot you
see inside monitors adjacent to the FBT, and as Ken pointed
out, you STILL get that inside monitors, even when there are
bugger all diesel trucks in use at all, let alone many setup
that badly. So it cant be coming from diesel trucks.

Basic logic.
and other than the gray "oil burning" stuff? And what
else has a "gray-transparent" look when seen through
and when finer, has a "diluted-milk-grayish-blue" but
darker when illuminated by sunlight?

What was being discussed was how many diesel trucks produce
much JET BLACK SOOT. You claimed that that somehow ends
up in monitors. You cant explain why you STILL get that jet black
soot in monitors even when there aint no diesel trucks in use at
all, SO IT CANT BE COMING FROM THEM.

Basic logic.
I can make soot fine enough to look bluish when illuminated by a bright
flashlight by running a propane torch with the air intake holes blocked.

Got SFA to do with whether the jet black soot you can see with
badly setup diesel engines is what ends up inside monitors.
I just tried that! Are you going to say that
propane can make ash or tar particles?

Nope. It doesnt produce JET BLACK SOOT normally
either unless you completely stuff up the gas to air mixture.

And that doesnt happen enough for it to be the
source of the jet black soot we see inside monitors.
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
DarkMatter said:
More immature baby bullshit from the twit that couldn't approach
light speed with a light speed rail gun, much less exceed it with the
"worldly" bullshit you bring to the table of life.

Again, dipshit... They are NOT "badly set up". They are set up rich
for a reason. Get a clue. And NO, they do not pollute more.

I guess visible black soot and sickening smell don't count as pollution.
It's probably healthy for us.

I have often thought that when diesel car owners make their purchase, they
must first take a class in properly-sanctioned denial.

What type of car is yours?
 
Z

Zak

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
I have often thought that when diesel car owners make their purchase, they
must first take a class in properly-sanctioned denial.

I guess the reason is the exhaust is at the back.

If the exhaust were to be in the middle of the steering wheel, I guess
cars would be much cleaner.


Thomas
 
K

Keith R. Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
I guess visible black soot and sickening smell don't count as pollution.
It's probably healthy for us.

From what I've read recently, this stuff is far worse than what
is expelled by a typical gasoline engine, yet the EPA thinks it's
peachy. Tighter regulations on diesel engines is coming.
I have often thought that when diesel car owners make their purchase, they
must first take a class in properly-sanctioned denial.

What type of car is yours?

DimBulb doesn't drive. ...too stoopid to pass the test. He
chooses to pollute the Usenet instead.
 
F

Fred Abse

Jan 1, 1970
0
If the exhaust were to be in the middle of the steering wheel, I guess
cars would be much cleaner.

Nah. The driver would be much dirtier.

:)
 
M

Mjolinor

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Abse said:
Nah. The driver would be much dirtier.

:)

I think that if a steel spike were fitted where the air bag is there would
be a lot less accidents.
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Until you look through a couple miles of it.


True, and the :clouds" of it are at more than 1 ppm as well.

The guy is simpleton loon.
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can make soot fine enough to look bluish when illuminated by a bright
flashlight by running a propane torch with the air intake holes blocked.
I just tried that! Are you going to say that propane can make ash or tar
particles?


We used to call those little floaty guys "dead soldiers". It is a
common term in refrigeration circles as they "torch lines" on a
regular basis.
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
I guess visible black soot and sickening smell don't count as pollution.
It's probably healthy for us.

You don't get it. Just because you *cannot* see what gasoline
engines produce, doesn't make it "less than a diesel". Doh!
I grew up around fresh turned eastern US clay and earth from new
construction, AND the smell of the diesel machinery. I love it.
Particularly when compared to the fucking rotten egg smell that the
sulfur in gasoline produces. You are clueless. Until your lame ass
sits in traffic on an open machine such as a bicycle or motorcycle,
I'd say that you don't know what the **** you are spewing about.
I have often thought that when diesel car owners make their purchase, they
must first take a class in properly-sanctioned denial.

This is about a retarded fucking remark. Yep... sure is.
What type of car is yours?

Don't own a car, but I DO know about combustion engines, dipshit..
Yet another stupid remark to assume as you do. Doh!
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
I guess the reason is the exhaust is at the back.

If the exhaust were to be in the middle of the steering wheel, I guess
cars would be much cleaner.

What the hell is this? More bent, ****'d logic?
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keith R. Williams said:
From what I've read recently, this stuff is far worse than what
is expelled by a typical gasoline engine, yet the EPA thinks it's
peachy. Tighter regulations on diesel engines is coming.

EPA is constrained by Congress. Congress is constrained by leashes held by
big contributors, in this case trucking, railroad, and shipping industries.
DimBulb doesn't drive. ...too stoopid to pass the test. He
chooses to pollute the Usenet instead.

Maybe he rides with Dan Quayle:

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in
our air and water that are doing it."
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
From what I've read recently, this stuff is far worse than what
is expelled by a typical gasoline engine, yet the EPA thinks it's
peachy. Tighter regulations on diesel engines is coming.


Yes, but you are a goddamned idiot. All you can interpret are the
convolutions in your shit.
DimBulb doesn't drive.

Yes, I do.
...too stoopid to pass the test.

Said the usenet retard that follows people around like a puppy
dog... no... a cockroach. Yeah... that's it... you're a cockroach.
He
chooses to pollute the Usenet instead.

Said the retard that hasn't made a viable contribution in months.
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
I meant a layer of air 4 miles thick
doesnt 'flow out of some thunderstorms'

How about 4 miles wide, because I was viewing horizontally.
Still aint brown at 1PPM, even thru 4 miles of it!


Bullshit. You dont ever get 'just two NO2 molecules
stuck together more than being a different compound)'

Fantasyland chemistry.

Just try Google on "nitrogen dioxide" "nitrogen tetroxide" equilibrium

They coexist in a ratio that varies with pressure, and nitrogen tetroxide
is referred to as a dimer of nitrogen dioxide. One of the hits that says
dimer:

http://www.customsensorsolutions.com/trickgas.htm
Particles of many kinds, actually. Doesnt have to be carbon.

Its that that produces the spectacular red sunsets with major fires.


Its wrong. Basic physics. Steve clearly aint gotta clue and his
'credentials' are complete duds as far as physics is concerned.


Thats the same one.


Nope, just one actually. And plenty of pig ignorant shit turns up on the web.


We'll see.


The first para of that says

Extremely small particles are the principal cause of the brown cloud.
These tiny particles, too small to be seen without a microscope, are
measured in microns, with one micron equal to about one-seventieth
(1/70) of the diameter of a human hair. Particulate matter less than
2.5 microns, often referred to as PM2.5, is a significant cause of haze.
Each particle, about the size of a single grain of flour, can float in the
atmosphere for days, behaving much like a gas. Over half of the
PM2.5 in Phoenix is caused by the burning of gasoline and diesel fuel
in vehicles (sometimes referred to as on-road mobile sources) and in
off-road mobile sources, such as construction equipment like loaders
and bulldozers, locomotives, lawn mowers, leaf blowers, and other
devices that emit air pollution as they move1. PM2.5 particles containing
carbon, like soot from tail pipes, are particularly effective in reducing
visibility, because they both scatter and absorb light.

Which is exactly what I said, using a lot more words.

But it does say that nitrogen dioxide is also present and gives that
color to the cloud! And also mentions PM2.5 carbon! Fine carbon
particles do exist in the air!
3. Is it a brown cloud day? A brown cloud appears to envelop
the scene but quickly thins out at higher elevations.

I have been through and over brown clouds in airplanes. It is not
unusual for them to be only a few thousand feet thick.

Look at
the particle and black carbon levels -- they are usually high.
Ozone will be low and relative humidity may vary.


Doesnt say a damned thing about NOx
being the cause of a visible brown haze.

Try again.

http://www.webref.org/chemistry/n/nitrogen_dioxide.htm

Says nitrogen dioxide absorbs visible light and causes the brown cloud

http://www.webref.org/chemistry/n/nitrogen_dioxide.htm

Although focusing on other nitrogen oxides, says that NO2 causes "brown
cloud"

http://www.phoenixvis.net/instrumentation.html

Says nitrogen dioxide gives the "Phoenix brown cloud" its color

http://www.phoenixvis.net/instrumentation.html

Mentions nitrogen dioxide giving the brown color, along with sulfates
caused by sulfur dioxide emissions causing haze and reduction of
visibility.

http://www.shsu.edu/~chemistry/Glossary/lmn.html

Says that nitrogen dioxide absorbs visible wavelengths and creates the
"Brown Cloud"
Nope, you just havent got a clue about the basics.
Those dont rise like say smoke from a fire does.

Sure as hell does, I see it lots of times!
Not far. THATS what matters.

Tell me why and how you think fine soot does not rise the way other fine
dust does, especially given web pages giving a cause of "brown
cloud"'s color other than or in addition to nitrogen dioxide usually being
carbon particles!
Looks like you aint gotta clue about what's being
discussed, whether that stuff rises that much.

Most data findable from Googling "nitrogen dioxide" "brown cloud" that
supports any specific alternative to nitrogen dioxide as causing the
visible "brown cloud" claim that carbon particles are a/the culprit!
Where do you propose such carbon particles come from? Diesel engines?
Buildings with oil heat?
A properly setup diesel engine does just that. Its only the badly
setup trucks that generate high levels of the jet black soot you
see inside monitors adjacent to the FBT, and as Ken pointed
out, you STILL get that inside monitors, even when there are
bugger all diesel trucks in use at all, let alone many setup
that badly. So it cant be coming from diesel trucks.

Basic logic.

Bad diesels make large amounts of coarser soot particles, not-so-bad
ones make less and finer soot but they still make fine soot and plenty of
them are doing that!
What was being discussed was how many diesel trucks produce
much JET BLACK SOOT. You claimed that that somehow ends
up in monitors. You cant explain why you STILL get that jet black
soot in monitors even when there aint no diesel trucks in use at
all, SO IT CANT BE COMING FROM THEM.
Basic logic.

Tell me where they have monitors in air not affected by diesel trucks,
buildings with oil heat, etc.!
Got SFA to do with whether the jet black soot you can see with
badly setup diesel engines is what ends up inside monitors.

I have been saying not-so-out-of-tune diesel engines produce finer soot,
as opposed to bad ones producing soot coarse enough to visibly fall out!
Or do you propose another source of carbom PM2.5 particles, which is a
primary alternative candidate to nitrogen dioxide for the "brown cloud"?
Nope. It doesnt produce JET BLACK SOOT normally
either unless you completely stuff up the gas to air mixture.

But I did stuff up the gas-to-air mixture, for the purpose of producing
soot particles fine enough to scatter blue light more than longer
wavelengths of visible light. And the soot was not always that fine but
sometimes it was, depending on how big the flame was and how completely I
blocked the air intakes.
And that doesnt happen enough for it to be the
source of the jet black soot we see inside monitors.

I did not claim that this was the case. My only claim related to abused
propane torches was that soot can be fine enough to preferentially scatter
blue light, not that propane torches, abused or otherwise, were normally
significant sources of what builds up in monitors and TV sets!

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Klipstein said:
Rod Speed wrote

And this isnt 'brown clouds', this is right down on the horizon.

And that stuff you see in Sydney is nothing like
'brownish but transparent air', its a nothing like
transparent smog/haze right down on the horizon.
How about 4 miles wide, because I was viewing horizontally.

You dont get that either, and the PPM levels of NOx with
thunderstorms aint anything like that 1 PPM level anyway.
Just try Google on "nitrogen dioxide" "nitrogen tetroxide" equilibrium

Just as hopeless as your previous silly stuff pulled using google.

You wont find a single reputable scientific source saying
anything like that completely silly 'just two NO2 molecules
stuck together more than being a different compound)'

Cloud cuckooland 'chemistry'
They coexist in a ratio that varies with pressure,

Doesnt say a damned thing about that terminally silly
stuff being discussed, 'just two NO2 molecules stuck
together more than being a different compound)'
and nitrogen tetroxide is referred to as a dimer of nitrogen dioxide.

Utterly mangled all over again.
One of the hits that says dimer:

Try a real science site.
But it does say that nitrogen dioxide is also
present and gives that color to the cloud!

Bullshit it does. That para above clearly says 'Extremely
small particles are the principal cause of the brown cloud'

Look up the word 'principal' some time.
And also mentions PM2.5 carbon!
Fine carbon particles do exist in the air!

No one ever said they didnt. What was clearly being
discussed was whether the HEAPS OF JET BLACK
SOOT SEEN WITH VERY BADLY SETUP DIESEL
ENGINES is at all common in the air even in a builtup area.
I have been through and over brown clouds in airplanes.

Pity I wasnt even discussing 'brown clouds' at all.
It is not unusual for them to be only a few thousand feet thick.

Got SFA to do with whether '"Brown Cloud" air
pollution is nitrogen dioxide or nitrogen dioxide'

Its much more complicated than that and
its primarily particles, not NOx at all.
Says nitrogen dioxide absorbs visible light and causes the brown cloud

Pity its just plain wrong and doesnt even cite a shred of
evidence for that particular claim. There are plenty of other
references, with MUCH better credentials, that say nothing
like that, including http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html

Same one again.
Although focusing on other nitrogen oxides, says that NO2 causes "brown cloud"

See above.
Says nitrogen dioxide gives the "Phoenix brown cloud" its color

Pity about what http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html says
and even you must be able to grasp that its the SAME SITE.
Mentions nitrogen dioxide giving the brown color,
along with sulfates caused by sulfur dioxide emissions
causing haze and reduction of visibility.

Pity the other bit of the SAME SITE says something
completely different. http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html
Says that nitrogen dioxide absorbs visible
wavelengths and creates the "Brown Cloud"

They're obviously all just repeating the same drivel without
a shred of substantiation cited to substantiate that claim.

Pity about http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html
which does spell out the detail much
more and is in fact scientifically correct.
Sure as hell does,

Nope, fraid not.
I see it lots of times!

Getting completely silly now.
Tell me why and how you think fine soot
does not rise the way other fine dust does,

Basically it aint got anything like the same volume
of hot air driving it as a fire, and the soot particles
are much larger and heavier, thats why they look
so bad. You dont get anything like that with a fire.
especially given web pages giving a cause of
"brown cloud"'s color other than or in addition
to nitrogen dioxide usually being carbon particles!

Even you must have noticed that brown aint jet black.
Most data findable from Googling "nitrogen dioxide" "brown cloud"
that supports any specific alternative to nitrogen dioxide as causing
the visible "brown cloud" claim that carbon particles are a/the culprit!

DOESNT SAY THAT ITS THE JET BLACK SOOT
FROM BADLY SETUP DIESEL ENGINES THATS
THE SOURCE OF THOSE CARBON PARTICLES.
Where do you propose such carbon particles come from?

Most combustion of carbon based fuel.
Diesel engines?

Nope. They're only a tiny part of the
total combustion of carbon based fuels.
Buildings with oil heat?

Which dont happen to produce much of the JET
BLACK SOOT seen in monitors adjacent to the FBT.

And even you should be able to grasp that its just a tad
unlikely that many buildings in pacific islands are actually
heated with oil heaters, so you STILL HAVENT EXPLAINED
HOW MONITORS THERE HAVE THE SAME JET BLACK
SOOT SEEN IN THEIR MONITORS.

More basic logic.
Bad diesels make large amounts of coarser
soot particles, not-so-bad ones make less
and finer soot but they still make fine soot

Nope, they dont produce unburnt carbon.

They just produce the usual products of combustion,
which doesnt include carbon particles with a properly
setup combustion system, because thats inefficient
and stuffs the fuel economy.
and plenty of them are doing that!

as Ken pointed out, you STILL get that inside
monitors, even when there are bugger all diesel
trucks in use at all, let alone many setup that
badly. So it cant be coming from diesel trucks.

Basic logic.
Tell me where they have monitors in air not
affected by diesel trucks, buildings with oil heat, etc.!

Pacific islands, as Ken pointed out.
I have been saying not-so-out-of-tune diesel engines produce finer soot,

You're wrong.
as opposed to bad ones producing soot coarse enough to visibly fall out!
Or do you propose another source of carbom PM2.5 particles,

There's plenty more combustion of carbon
based fuels than just diesel trucks.
which is a primary alternative candidate
to nitrogen dioxide for the "brown cloud"?

Thats just plain wrong too.

You cant explain why you STILL get that jet black soot
in monitors even when there aint no diesel trucks in use
at all, SO IT CANT BE COMING FROM THEM.

Basic logic.
But I did stuff up the gas-to-air mixture, for the purpose
of producing soot particles fine enough to scatter blue
light more than longer wavelengths of visible light.

All completely and utterly irrelevant to what happens much with
normal propane combustion, SO THAT CANT BE THE SOURCE
OF THE JET BLACK SOOT SEEN IN MONITORS EITHER.
And the soot was not always that fine but sometimes
it was, depending on how big the flame was and how
completely I blocked the air intakes.

All completely and utterly irrelevant to what happens much with
normal propane combustion, SO THAT CANT BE THE SOURCE
OF THE JET BLACK SOOT SEEN IN MONITORS EITHER.
I did not claim that this was the case. My only claim related to abused
propane torches was that soot can be fine enough to preferentially scatter
blue light, not that propane torches, abused or otherwise, were normally
significant sources of what builds up in monitors and TV sets!

So it was completely irrelevant waffle, just like the 'brown clouds' are in spades.
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
And this isnt 'brown clouds', this is right down on the horizon.

So when brownish air looks like the "usual brown cloud" but is less
opaque than usual but has the nitrogen dioxide brown color, you are going
to say it's not brown cloud and therefore nitrogen dioxide does not cause
visible air pollution?
And that stuff you see in Sydney is nothing like
'brownish but transparent air', its a nothing like
transparent smog/haze right down on the horizon.

And how does that disprove either sort of brownish air being tinted by
nitrogen dioxide, and how does that disprove presence of fine soot
particles in the air?
You dont get that either, and the PPM levels of NOx with
thunderstorms aint anything like that 1 PPM level anyway.

I did claim even less can make visible air coloration, and thunderstorms
are easily 4 miles wide.
Just as hopeless as your previous silly stuff pulled using google.

You wont find a single reputable scientific source saying
anything like that completely silly 'just two NO2 molecules
stuck together more than being a different compound)'

Cloud cuckooland 'chemistry'


Doesnt say a damned thing about that terminally silly
stuff being discussed, 'just two NO2 molecules stuck
together more than being a different compound)'


Utterly mangled all over again.



Try a real science site.



Bullshit it does. That para above clearly says 'Extremely
small particles are the principal cause of the brown cloud'

Look further down than the first paragraph then! If you still say that
this document does not also say that nitrogen dioxide gives "brown cloud"
its color than I will call you a liar!
Look up the word 'principal' some time.

No one ever said they didnt. What was clearly being
discussed was whether the HEAPS OF JET BLACK
SOOT SEEN WITH VERY BADLY SETUP DIESEL
ENGINES is at all common in the air even in a builtup area.

You are stuck on "badly setup" or "very badly setup" ones, while ones
not so badly set up make fine soot!
Pity I wasnt even discussing 'brown clouds' at all.


Got SFA to do with whether '"Brown Cloud" air
pollution is nitrogen dioxide or nitrogen dioxide'

Its much more complicated than that and
its primarily particles, not NOx at all.


Pity its just plain wrong and doesnt even cite a shred of
evidence for that particular claim. There are plenty of other
references, with MUCH better credentials, that say nothing
like that, including http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html


Same one again.


See above.



Pity about what http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html says
and even you must be able to grasp that its the SAME SITE.



Pity the other bit of the SAME SITE says something
completely different. http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html



They're obviously all just repeating the same drivel without
a shred of substantiation cited to substantiate that claim.

Pity about http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html
which does spell out the detail much
more and is in fact scientifically correct.

In the fourth paragrph or so, that page says:

"Nitrogen dioxide and sulfur dioxide gases from burning of fossil fuels
also contribute to the brown cloud. Nitrogen dioxide gas is brown, giving
that color to the haze."
Nope, fraid not.


Getting completely silly now.



Basically it aint got anything like the same volume
of hot air driving it as a fire, and the soot particles
are much larger and heavier, thats why they look
so bad. You dont get anything like that with a fire.

When sometimes they are small enough to preferentially scatter blue
light?! Besides, when smoke reaches 1,000 feet or a few thousand feet
it's usually mainly for reasons other than heat from the source.
Even you must have noticed that brown aint jet black.

Of course a cloud of particles fine enough to preferentially scatter
blue light will look brown to transmitted light, but how does that make
carbon brown? Or are you now going to claim that carbon is brown?
DOESNT SAY THAT ITS THE JET BLACK SOOT
FROM BADLY SETUP DIESEL ENGINES THATS
THE SOURCE OF THOSE CARBON PARTICLES.

You seem to have this hangup on diesel engines setup badly enough to
make really coarse soot!
Most combustion of carbon based fuel.

I said diesel engines as an example and not as a limitation!
Nope. They're only a tiny part of the
total combustion of carbon based fuels.


Which dont happen to produce much of the JET
BLACK SOOT seen in monitors adjacent to the FBT.

And even you should be able to grasp that its just a tad
unlikely that many buildings in pacific islands are actually
heated with oil heaters, so you STILL HAVENT EXPLAINED
HOW MONITORS THERE HAVE THE SAME JET BLACK
SOOT SEEN IN THEIR MONITORS.

More basic logic.

I also said oil heated buildings as an example and not as a limitation.

And your favored http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html says that
offending particles stay in the air for days!
Nope, they dont produce unburnt carbon.

They just produce the usual products of combustion,
which doesnt include carbon particles with a properly
setup combustion system, because thats inefficient
and stuffs the fuel economy.

Only perfectly ideally, which many don't do! If .1% or ,01% of the
carbon becomes soot, that's not going to significantly impact fuel
economy!

Above you say:
Pity about http://www.phoenixvis.net/causes.html
which does spell out the detail much
more and is in fact scientifically correct.

That page says over half your favored PM2.5 is caused by gasoline and
diesel vehicles. Other pages I already cited giving causes of "brown
cloud" color other than nitrogen dioxide say it's carbon particles.
as Ken pointed out, you STILL get that inside
monitors, even when there are bugger all diesel
trucks in use at all, let alone many setup that
badly. So it cant be coming from diesel trucks.

Basic logic.

If dust can come to Florida from the Sahara Desert enough to affect
air transparency, and if PM2.5 stays in the air for days, then how far
does a monitor need to be from sources of airborne carbon particles to
disprove the stuff being carbon?
Pacific islands, as Ken pointed out.



You're wrong.


There's plenty more combustion of carbon
based fuels than just diesel trucks.

So you propose gasoline, home heating oil and and natural gas being the
main cause of airborne carbon particles in "brown cloud"?
Thats just plain wrong too.
You cant explain why you STILL get that jet black soot
in monitors even when there aint no diesel trucks in use
at all, SO IT CANT BE COMING FROM THEM.

Basic logic.



All completely and utterly irrelevant to what happens much with
normal propane combustion, SO THAT CANT BE THE SOURCE
OF THE JET BLACK SOOT SEEN IN MONITORS EITHER.


All completely and utterly irrelevant to what happens much with
normal propane combustion, SO THAT CANT BE THE SOURCE
OF THE JET BLACK SOOT SEEN IN MONITORS EITHER.



So it was completely irrelevant waffle, just like the 'brown clouds' are
in spades.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
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