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Why do the red lighted switches on surge suppressors eventually begin flashing?

J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a Tripp-Lite top of the line surge suppressor.
http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=111

The lighted switch is near the upper left of the device shown in this
picture.
http://www.tripplite.com/shared/img/products/small/ISOBAR8ULTRA.jpg

My dad had a power switching device under his monitor which had the same
symptom, some of the red lighted switches begin flashing/flickering after
years of use.

I find difficult to believe that Tripp-Lite would use a cheap part. The
other parts are very impressive. For example, the outlets are modular
parts, not just pieces of metal stuck inside the plastic housing. My guess
is those red lighted switches are difficult to design for long life. Maybe
having something to do with the fact they are run off of AC line?

Whatever the problem, I am curious what is going on with them. Why do they
begin flashing?

Thanks in advance.
 
H

hamilton

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oh John,

You are making me feel real OLD.

For the young in the forum.

The light is a NEON gas lamp.


After years of service the neon gas in the lamp does not fully
illuminate.
The flickering is the partial ionization of the neon gas.

This is normal, and yes its very, very cheap.
 
B

Ban

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Doe wrote:
|| I have a Tripp-Lite top of the line surge suppressor.
|| http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=111
||
|| The lighted switch is near the upper left of the device shown in this
|| picture.
|| http://www.tripplite.com/shared/img/products/small/ISOBAR8ULTRA.jpg
||
|| My dad had a power switching device under his monitor which had the
|| same symptom, some of the red lighted switches begin
|| flashing/flickering after years of use.
||
|| I find difficult to believe that Tripp-Lite would use a cheap part.
|| The other parts are very impressive. For example, the outlets are
|| modular parts, not just pieces of metal stuck inside the plastic
|| housing. My guess is those red lighted switches are difficult to
|| design for long life. Maybe having something to do with the fact
|| they are run off of AC line?
||
|| Whatever the problem, I am curious what is going on with them. Why
|| do they begin flashing?
||
|| Thanks in advance.

Eventually the overvoltage transient suppressors(MOV) are worn out by
absorbing too many surges and have to be replaced by a service tech. I
imagine you are not too familiar with soldering electric parts, are you.
I copied the relevant passage from the manual.

ciao Ban
The red "Fault" LED lights after

continued use of your Isobar.

Your Isobar may have been damaged

by a surge.

Have a qualified electrician examine your

outlet to determine if a fault has developed.

If no fault exists, contact Tripp Lite for

service.
 
N

N. Thornton

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Doe said:
I have a Tripp-Lite top of the line surge suppressor.

A foolish way to spend ones hard earned.

My dad had a power switching device under his monitor which had the same
symptom, some of the red lighted switches begin flashing/flickering after
years of use.

I find difficult to believe that Tripp-Lite would use a cheap part. The
other parts are very impressive. For example, the outlets are modular
parts, not just pieces of metal stuck inside the plastic housing. My guess
is those red lighted switches are difficult to design for long life. Maybe
having something to do with the fact they are run off of AC line?

Neons do this. Neons are cheap parts. Surge suppressors are money
wasted in 99% of cases.


Regards, NT
 
P

Paul Mathews

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Doe said:
I have a Tripp-Lite top of the line surge suppressor.
http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=111

The lighted switch is near the upper left of the device shown in this
picture.
http://www.tripplite.com/shared/img/products/small/ISOBAR8ULTRA.jpg

My dad had a power switching device under his monitor which had the same
symptom, some of the red lighted switches begin flashing/flickering after
years of use.

I find difficult to believe that Tripp-Lite would use a cheap part. The
other parts are very impressive. For example, the outlets are modular
parts, not just pieces of metal stuck inside the plastic housing. My guess
is those red lighted switches are difficult to design for long life. Maybe
having something to do with the fact they are run off of AC line?

Whatever the problem, I am curious what is going on with them. Why do they
begin flashing?

Thanks in advance.

The threshold voltage for neon lamps increases over their lifetime.
They are somewhat photo sensitive and temperature sensitive, so the
flickering can depend on those factors as well. Tripplite shaves cost
where they can, just like most other successful manufacturers.
Paul Mathews
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neons do this. Neons are cheap parts. Surge suppressors are money
wasted in 99% of cases.

Agree on that.

But what's the neon failure mechanism? I'd suspect the neon augers its
way into the surface of the electrodes, and is also maybe trapped on
the glass by sputtered electrode molecules. Seals may leak, too.
Anybody know?

I've seen a lot of very old outdoor HV neon signs that still work
fine.

John
 
J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] (N. Thornton) wrote
A foolish way to spend ones hard earned.

I am sure you can baffle me with bullshit if you can't dazzle me with
brilliance, so I wont argue the subject with you.

Does anyone in here have links to reliable sources which
substantiate/refute N. Thornton's sensational claim? If his claim is true,
I am sure there are many which would enjoy taking pot shots at an allegedly
useless device which is so popular. It's very good tasting bait IMO. The
effectiveness or not of surge suppressors would be easy to prove in a
laboratory.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
(in <[email protected]>) about 'Why do the
red lighted switches on surge suppressors eventually begin flashing?',
[email protected] (N. Thornton) wrote

I am sure you can baffle me with bullshit if you can't dazzle me with
brilliance, so I wont argue the subject with you.

Does anyone in here have links to reliable sources which
substantiate/refute N. Thornton's sensational claim? If his claim is true,
I am sure there are many which would enjoy taking pot shots at an allegedly
useless device which is so popular. It's very good tasting bait IMO. The
effectiveness or not of surge suppressors would be easy to prove in a
laboratory.
One 'W T' posts at tedious length about this on this NG from item to
time. The point is, in brief, that most surges are *common-mode* - both
hot and neutral surge together with respect to ground, and the surge
limiter can only zap such surges if it has a VERY low-impedance
connection to ground. I don't know which sort of surge suppressor you
have, but unless it has a connection to true ground that is a THICK wire
less than about 1 m long, it won't be very effective.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
(in <[email protected]>) about 'Why do the
red lighted switches on surge suppressors eventually begin flashing?',
The URL didn't work earlier, but it does now. It says '12 ft cord'. Ends
message. It CAN'T deal properly with common-mode surges.
 
N

N. Thornton

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Doe said:
I am sure you can baffle me with bullshit if you can't dazzle me with
brilliance, so I wont argue the subject with you.
Does anyone in here have links to reliable sources which
substantiate/refute N. Thornton's sensational claim?

Sensational :) Its just another product.


Popular tenets of business:

Products are sold to get your money. Half the products in the shops
are as useful as rubbish. Some shops seem to sell nothing but. But as
long as you can be made to believe there is a good reason to give them
your money they'll profit. Junk product sales bring in billions per
year. I didnt realise that could be viewed as sensational.

If his claim is true,
I am sure there are many which would enjoy taking pot shots at an allegedly
useless device which is so popular.

read this ng. But products generate profit, profit for manufacturer,
retailer, advertiser, and review magazines that rely on advertisers.
And everyone wants money. So you work out the motives involved.
It's very good tasting bait IMO.

not sure I understand
The
effectiveness or not of surge suppressors would be easy to prove in a
laboratory.

yes it is, mostly they have no path to ground and thus offer no
protection to common mode surges. Distant lightning strikes cause
common mode surges. Computer power supplies already have significant
surge protection built in. Simple.

Are you someone who can do something with this sort of info?


Regards, NT
 
J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] (N. Thornton) wrote
read this ng.

I am reading this thread and I don't see any links to laboratory tests
which provide evidence of your claim surge supressors are a waste of money.
My research turns up the opposite.
yes it is,

But you have no idea where your proof might be.
 
J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
The URL didn't work earlier, but it does now. It says '12 ft cord'.
Ends message. It CAN'T deal properly with common-mode surges.

So you cannot point to any laboratory tests, let alone anything done by
reliable sources, which substantiates the sensational claim a Tripp-Lite
top of the line surge suppressor (the one I pointed you to) is a waste of
money.
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Jan 1, 1970
0
A foolish way to spend ones hard earned.



Neons do this. Neons are cheap parts. Surge suppressors are money
wasted in 99% of cases.

Don't blame marketing when it succeeds... blame the truth-tellers for not
being convincing enough. Read that as "not good enough salesmanship".

It's one thing to completely redo a home's ground system and entrance
panel (I've been working on mine over the past month, now with two dozen
ground rods in a radial configuration and all the associated Cadwelds to
bond everything together, and a combination of gas discharge tubes and
Sidactors on all RF & telecom lines) and another to sell a $50 trinket with
50 cents of MOV's inside.

Tim.
 
D

Dave Holford

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
[email protected] (N. Thornton) wrote


I am reading this thread and I don't see any links to laboratory tests
which provide evidence of your claim surge supressors are a waste of money.
My research turns up the opposite.


But you have no idea where your proof might be.


I have only seen them marketed to, and used in, consumer applications.

The readership of this newsgroup should be able to determine if they are
marketed to, and used in, professional installations; in which case one
would assume there is some validity to the advertising.

I am not sure if they are really useful gadgets or should be classed
with 'oxygen free speaker cables' and 'magnetic water softeners'.

Some definitive data would be welcome.

Dave
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon lights use low pressure Neon. Threshold (trigger)
voltage determined by a combination that includes gas
pressure, contents (purity) of the gas, electrode material,
temperature, external excitation (ie external light), and
electrode separation distance. Voltage must be high enough to
convert neon gas into plasma. Plasma is a low impedance
conductor - meaning current now become the relavent
parameter. While in a conductive (plasma) state, the amount
of current determines how electrodes vaporize; contaminate the
gas. This contamination causes neon gas 'threshold voltage'
to increase.

As that threshold voltage increases, then neon lamp does and
does not trigger. That would be the flashing observed. Life
expectancy of a neon lamp is extended by limiting the current
through that neon lamp while in plasma state - the series
resistor. But reducing this current also lowers the light
output. And so we have the tradeoff between light output and
life expectancy.

Typically NE-2 glow lamps were installed for a life
expectancy of 100,000 hours. However some manufacturers may
need more light output or have that device 'appear' to require
replacement earlier. So they would use a smaller series
resistor that shortens life expectancy of that NE-2 neon glow
lamp. Concept found in books on plasma physics and better
understood when vacuum tubes were popular.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Start with http://tinyurl.com/l3m9 .

In the meantime - what research? Of course that research
lists numbers? It discusses various types of transients -
especially common mode or longitudinal mode - which are the
destructive type of surge?
 
J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
After some more research, I figure the off-topic troll is motivated by
either the fact some do not know buildings in the United States are
shielded from common mode transients, or this is a game.

Whatever. I can understand why there is no support for the arguments
anywhere on the Internet. If you still disagree, maybe you can find a
publisher interested in obscure ideas.

Sometimes I wonder if American scientists hang out on Usenet.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
(in <[email protected]>) about 'Why do the
red lighted switches on surge suppressors eventually begin flashing?',
So you cannot point to any laboratory tests, let alone anything done by
reliable sources, which substantiates the sensational claim a Tripp-Lite
top of the line surge suppressor (the one I pointed you to) is a waste of
money.

Go back through the group archives and look for the extensive
explanations given by W Thom. Briefly, if you can understand something
rather simple, the MOVs in the device attenuate differential-mode surges
by applying a low impedance between the supply lines. This works,
because the connections are very short and have low resistance and
inductance.

However, to attenuate common-mode surges, which are far more prevalent
than differential-mode surges, the MOVs need to be between the lines and
ground. There may well be such MOVs in your device. BUT the 'ground' is
at least 12 feet of wire from even the ground in your wall-socket, and
that is another stretch of wire from the ground reference of the surge.
Just that 12 ft of wire has about 6 uH of inductance, as well as some
resistance. This represents a large impedance at the high frequencies
present in the surge and *seriously* compromises the attenuating effect
of the MOVs. The impedance of the wiring from the wall socket to
wherever the ground of the surge source is represents a further
impedance limiting the attenuation.

There IS a situation where differential-mode surges may have little or
no effect on the equipment served by the surge-limiting device. But in
general, you can't be sure that you have that situation (basically, that
there is NO other path to ground whatsoever from anywhere in the total
equipment set-up other than the power cord connected to the surge
limiter). If you DO have it, then when the surge occurs, all the
equipment, including all exposed metal parts, carries the full surge
voltage relative to ground, so be sure you are not touching it when a
surge occurs.

Whether your device is a waste of money or not is for YOU to decide. I
make no such assertion. You may consider that the insurance scheme
associated with it is worth having even if there are doubts about some
aspects of its performance.

I wonder whether any manufacturer of these devices has put products
through the European EMC common-mode surge test (IEC 61000-4-5, Figure 6
[1]) and is prepared to publish the results, including the length of the
cable used.

[1] You need the latest version; the original had the artworks for
Figures 6 and 7 swapped over.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
(in <[email protected]>) about 'Why do the
red lighted switches on surge suppressors eventually begin flashing?',
After some more research, I figure the off-topic


What is 'off-topic' about it? It's a natural development from your
original post.

For me, it's absolutely not a troll.
is motivated by
either the fact some do not know buildings in the United States are
shielded from common mode transients, or this is a game.

Really? How do they do that? Why then does the US version of IEC
61000-4-5 call for a more severe test (lower source resistance) for
*equipment* than the International Standard? If the equipment is never
exposed to surges, there is no justification for any test at all.
 
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