### Network

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#### Bob La Londe

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wrote this up today for a client who just couldn't wrap his mind aroound
why his DVR sucks. I thought some of you might be able to use it. Feel
free.

Yes you can get upto 30 days record time, but you will not be happy with the
recording quality. You can only get it at an extremely slow number of still
images per second stored on your recorder. About 2-3 frames per second.

Yes you can get decent usable record quality, but you can only get a couple
days record time because you have more images to store in a day. At 20-30
frames per second you can be pretty sure of getting most things, but only
for a couple days at best.

YOU CAN NOT GET GOOD RECORD QUALITY AND LONG RECORD TIME WITH YOUR KALATEL
2000 RECORDER.

You can not have both with this machine. The company who made it was bought
out by GE Security Group several years ago, and they no longer support the
unit. In fact it was no-longer directly supported even before the company
was bought out. It can not be upgraded.

WHAT DOES FRAMES PER SECOND MEAN. A real time video signal is approximately
30 still images per second. Each camera on your system is sending about 30
frames (individual still images) each second to your recorder.

16 Cameras X 30 images per second = 480 images per second.

There are some very good video recorders available at a pretty high price
that will record at up to 480 frames per second, but they can not store more
than a few days at that record rate. Most are set to record at a much slower
rate , and only record at a faster rate if there is an alarm activated or
possibly on motion sensing. A machine that could record all of that still
will have 1-2 Terabytes of data storage.

HOW DOES THAT COMPARE TO MY MACHINE? The little Kalatel DSR 2000 at your
shop has about 80 Gigabytes of storage. That is approximately 0.000976 5625
Terabytes

A Kalatel DSR 2000 has less than one thousandth of the storage necessary to
record real time video for several weeks.

HOW ABOUT PRETTY GOOD VIDEO? The unit will record for a month at 2-3 frames
per second.

WHAT IS 2-3 FRAMES PER SECOND? At 2 frames per second that means during any
given second 14 of your 16 cameras are not being recorded. OR... It takes
approximately 8 seconds before you have a chance that all 16 cameras have
managed to have a single still image saved on the recorder.

HOW ABOUT FOR JUST TWO WEEKS? This unit may record for two weeks at 4-6
frames per second. Assuming you can actually get two weeks record time at 6
frames per second, you may not be happy with the record quality.

WHAT DOES SIX FRAMES PER SECOND MEAN? At six frames per second during any
given second 10 of your sixteen cameras are not being recorded. OR... it
means that it may take 3 to 4 seconds before any particular camera has a
chance of having an image stored to the recorder.

WHAT IS MOTION ACTIVATION? Motion Activation is a technology built into many
digital recorders that will allow them to determine if the current frame
from a camera is substantially different from the last frame.

HOW IS MOTION ACTIVATION USED? Often it is used to give one camera priority
over another for recording or to change the record rate.

WILL MOTION ACTIVATED RECORDING SOLVE ALL MY PROBLEMS? No. The Kalatel 2000
is old 1st generation technology, and its not particularly good at video
motion detection. Also, it can not even process the number of images being
sent to it. The maximum number of images it can process is about 60 per
second. You are sending 480 images per second to the recorder.

WHAT IS THE BEST SOLUTION? With this unit there is no best solution. It can
not be upgraded, and it is no longer supported by the manufacturer. The only
real alternative is to replace the unit with a newer better recorder with
more storage and more processing capacity. Anything else will be an unhappy
compromise.

C

#### CH®IS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob La Londe said:
I wrote this up today for a client who just couldn't wrap his mind aroound
why his DVR sucks. I thought some of you might be able to use it. Feel
free.

do you ever get the feeling some people watch too much csi?

what do you mean we can't zoom in, clear up the image, and see the
reflection in that guys eye from 100 feet away and see what he was looking
at? this things a piece of crap

N

#### nick markowitz

Jan 1, 1970
0
do you ever get the feeling some people watch too much csi?

what do you mean we can't zoom in, clear up the image, and see the
reflection in that guys eye from 100 feet away and see what he was looking
at? this things a piece of crap

Too much hollywood CSI thinking its why I rarely do cameras any more
unless person I am selling it to fully understands what they are
getting and going to see. For what they are spending.
I also clearly point out to them a camera is never going to prevent a
crime either becuse many think so.

B

#### Bob La Londe

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L Bass said:
In case you're interested, Honeywell Video has a number of storage and
bandwidth calculators for their DVR's. They come in handy selecting an
appropriate tool for a given project. Even if you don't use Honeywell,
the calculators can be useful in illustrating to a client why he needs so
much storage. Following is a link:

https://www.honeywellvideo.com/support/configurators/index.html

Hope that helps.

I finaly got through to him by telling him he was trying to stuff a file

C

#### Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
my picture is not clear!
what do you mean Sam, it's 540 lines of res., what's not clear (it's a
perfect picture).
oh, I can't focus in on it
huh? You mean you want us to change the focal length so you see a tighter
picture
oh I guess yeah.
oh that's better, but I want to see the people sitting at the other end of
the bar too

Sam needs 2 more cameras to do what he wants but I don't have the heart to
tell him because he's so damn cheap.

--
**Crash Gordon**

B

#### Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Crash Gordon said:
my picture is not clear!
what do you mean Sam, it's 540 lines of res., what's not clear (it's a
perfect picture).
oh, I can't focus in on it
huh? You mean you want us to change the focal length so you see a tighter
picture
oh I guess yeah.
oh that's better, but I want to see the people sitting at the other end of
the bar too

Sam needs 2 more cameras to do what he wants but I don't have the heart to
tell him because he's so damn cheap.

You know you have a challenge when the customer wants "a" camera to see this
view and his head is spinning like an owl. I also love the call that starts
out, "I saw this camera system on the internet, do you install these?" I
started qualifying the calls for camera systems many years ago, especially
residential. Saved a lot of time and gas by not chasing every call that
comes into the office knowing that the majority are not going to spend the
money on decent eqiupment. That was an easy decision after I had been to one
house to many where the camera system would have been more expensive than
the car in their driveway.

B

#### Bob La Londe

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Worthy said:
You know you have a challenge when the customer wants "a" camera to see
this view and his head is spinning like an owl. I also love the call that
starts out, "I saw this camera system on the internet, do you install
these?" I started qualifying the calls for camera systems many years ago,
especially residential. Saved a lot of time and gas by not chasing every
call that comes into the office knowing that the majority are not going to
spend the money on decent eqiupment. That was an easy decision after I had
been to one house to many where the camera system would have been more
expensive than the car in their driveway.

"Well, I saw this system at "box club" that was only "$cheap."' My response to those is always the same. "Those are inexpensive consumer grade systems. Box club has a fairly liberal return policy, so if you want to install it yourself you can try it, and if you are not happy you can take it back. Just make sure you save your receipt and you try it out right away." Of course they usually then immediately ask, "Do you install those?" I have tried a variety of responses to this but have never found one that gives a good result. I tried, "Sure, the labor to install and stand behind that is$(original estimate * 1.5)." Most people who ask are too stupid to
understand and just get pissed so I now I just tell them if they want a DIY
consumer system the consumer needs to DIY it.

Its tough, but I can't go around pissing everybody off either. As much as I
would like to.

As to the swivel neck people. I try to explain that the more they see the
less they get. Then I ask them if they have ever been to the Grand Canyon.
If they have it makes my explanations a lot easier from there. They can
stand on the south rim in a few places and see most of the canyon, but there
is no possible way they can identify a person down at the ranch in the
bottom. If they get a really good telescope with video imaging and image
stabilization they might, but then they can't even see the yard where they
are standing, much less any part of the canyon.

Most simply can not afford even a decent video system. "Box Club" is the
only real solution for them, but I still will not sell or install those
because they will eventually not be happy, and they will remember the
features I mentioned were capable with better systems and claim I lied to
them or ripped them off.

Sometimes though you have a customer you have done work for, fixed problems
You just don't want to piss them off, but in order to do that you have to
make them understand what they have. That's why I started this thread.

B

#### Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob La Londe said:
Most simply can not afford even a decent video system. "Box Club" is the
only real solution for them, but I still will not sell or install those
because they will eventually not be happy, and they will remember the
features I mentioned were capable with better systems and claim I lied to
them or ripped them off.

Sometimes though you have a customer you have done work for, fixed
without question. You just don't want to piss them off, but in order to do
that you have to make them understand what they have. That's why I

We all have those types. They are tied to 6 other customers and may even be
a pain the arse but they pay. I have heard it referred to as TLV. A customer
has a "total life value". That is when a customer that has been with you
for10 years, started with his condo, has moved 4 times adding a new system
with each move, added his business, referred 6 other good paying customers
who each have moved and added there businesses, etc. etc. That is the TLV of
that first customer. Piss them off and you can screw up the TLV. However,
these are the types that will listen to you since they look at you as the
expert anyway.

M

#### Matt Ion

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob said:
Most simply can not afford even a decent video system. "Box Club" is
the only real solution for them, but I still will not sell or install
those because they will eventually not be happy, and they will remember
the features I mentioned were capable with better systems and claim I
lied to them or ripped them off.

It's doesn't take DIY "Box Club" systems for that! One (ex) customer
was a car dealership and we were installing in a super-duper new
facility, so there was no shortage of money being thrown around. They
wanted a range of options, from cheaper to better. "Better" included
megapixel IP cameras in various perimeter locations to give clear views
of the surrounding lot. "Cheaper" put basic analog domes there, with
wide views to encompass one full side of the building in one shot.

Both options were detailed in the bids... they went with "cheaper".

Fast-forward almost a year as we're STILL trying to get them square up
the bill... they call ME asking about getting clearer shots from their
outside cameras, as there had been vandalism to several cars and all
they had was distant, blocky footage, and they wanted to identify the
system wasn't performing as promised... I told him I had no idea about
that and he should check with my boss.

As it turned out, he was going on about the specs claimed for the
"better" system. The boss pulled up copies of the original bids and
pointed out to him that he'd opted for "cheaper"... and BTW, we're still
waiting for payment. He settled up soon after that, and just went away
quietly...

C

#### Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
the box club has a 16 camera dvr Q-See system online for really really
cheap...so I'll be expecting some of THOSE phone calls!

Sure we'll put it in...at increase hourly.
When it breaks you can pay us to take it down so you can return it to Box
Club
Then pay us again when it comes back repaired (if it does) to put it back
up.

Much cheaper to buy what we recommend...or like you said DIY.

--
**Crash Gordon**

C

#### Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is why I put vari focal cameras in.

--
**Crash Gordon**

M

#### mleuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
do you ever get the feeling some people watch too much csi?

what do you mean we can't zoom in, clear up the image, and see the
reflection in that guys eye from 100 feet away and see what he was looking
at? this things a piece of crap

Wait you mean you CAN'T do that???

Jeez it looked so real on TV

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