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Will flat, modular, outsde the wall phone wire run DSL for 50 feet?

M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Will flat, modular, outsde the wall phone wire run DSL for 50 feet?
Or do I need thicker wire?

I have consistently slow download speeds on low-speed DSL based on the
Verizon line-test and www.speedtest.org, and the one weak spot in my
home wiring could be the wire from the outdood NID to the Verizon
modem. I"m not using the wiring that came with the house***.

Right now, I"m using some *indoor* but outside the wall phone wire,
the flexible kind that's meant to work with modular plugs and go from
the wall socket to the phone. But I have it from the NID, running
loosely up the side of the house*** to a window which is shut but not
very tightly, to the hall and back into the next bedroom with the
modem, a total of about 50 feet.

Is OUTSIDE THE WALL wire inadequate for such a llong length, 50'?

I ask because a few months ago I bought some specially thin indoor
modular phone wiring, meant to go under a carpet without making a
lump, sold at Home Depot, and when I used that, my phones worked fine,
but my internet worked NOTat all.

Changing back to a new piece of the original outside the wall, but not
thin, wiring got me back to normal, that is, normally slow.

Should I be using the round, bendable but not really flexible wire,
where each of the four colors is a single strand of wire, which is
meant to go inside walls and for longer distances?

It's a bunch of effort^^ to try this, so I need some encouragement.

^^In practice, it will mean I won't be able to shut the window even as
much as now, until I drill a hole in the window frame.

***I can't use the inside the wall wiring that came with the house
because there is an intermittent short somewhere. I looked for it for
hours, disconnecting wires etc. and couldn't find it.


Or is it more likely my 4-year old Verzion modem needs replacing?
Or that there is a problem in part that Verizon controls?

Thanks a lot.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's not the thickness. It's (I assume) the cable's characteristic impedance
and lossiness that determine its usability..

I have consistently slow download speeds on low-speed DSL...

If it's low-speed DSL, why should that be a surprise?
 
M

mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
micky said:
Will flat, modular, outsde the wall phone wire run DSL for 50 feet?
Or do I need thicker wire?

I have consistently slow download speeds on low-speed DSL based on the
Verizon line-test and www.speedtest.org, and the one weak spot in my
home wiring could be the wire from the outdood NID to the Verizon
modem. I"m not using the wiring that came with the house***.

Right now, I"m using some *indoor* but outside the wall phone wire,
the flexible kind that's meant to work with modular plugs and go from
the wall socket to the phone. But I have it from the NID, running
loosely up the side of the house*** to a window which is shut but not
very tightly, to the hall and back into the next bedroom with the
modem, a total of about 50 feet.

Is OUTSIDE THE WALL wire inadequate for such a llong length, 50'?

I ask because a few months ago I bought some specially thin indoor
modular phone wiring, meant to go under a carpet without making a
lump, sold at Home Depot, and when I used that, my phones worked fine,
but my internet worked NOTat all.

Changing back to a new piece of the original outside the wall, but not
thin, wiring got me back to normal, that is, normally slow.

Should I be using the round, bendable but not really flexible wire,
where each of the four colors is a single strand of wire, which is
meant to go inside walls and for longer distances?

It's a bunch of effort^^ to try this, so I need some encouragement.

^^In practice, it will mean I won't be able to shut the window even as
much as now, until I drill a hole in the window frame.

***I can't use the inside the wall wiring that came with the house
because there is an intermittent short somewhere. I looked for it for
hours, disconnecting wires etc. and couldn't find it.

If you can catch it when it's shorted, the phone company has TDR tools
that can tell where the short is. First thing to do is check the
sockets. I've seen bent pins in the socket caused by forcing the plug
in at an angle or by tripping over the cord and yanking it out.
Or is it more likely my 4-year old Verzion modem needs replacing?
Or that there is a problem in part that Verizon controls?

Thanks a lot.

You need to be more specific. "Slow" to some people may seem fast to
others.

My download speeds are slow. Some sites give me the full 1Mb/s, but most
are a fraction of that. And it's been getting worse. Think it has a lot
to do with the increased demand from streaming video and significantly
greater intrusion from virus scanners, popup blockers, firewalls, all eating
up processor power. Even if your burst rate meets the speed, the
surfing experience can slow significantly.
How far you are from the central office will also affect the speed you get.

AS suggested by others, take your modem out to the box and plug it
directly into the phone company and run some speed tests. If that's slow,
call the provider and demand what you're paying for. If you don't do
that, they'll take a quick look at their computer and claim it's inside
your house. They'll gladly come fix it, but it's gonna cost you.

After several tries with Verizon getting nowhere, I stumbled on the phone
number for the local manager for DSL service. She was very helpful and
sent someone to check the modem on their end. It was configured wrong and
I got instant improvement.

Don't remember the exact terminology, but when they ran out of phone
lines, they started creating new ones by bridging across two pairs to
make a third. That's not good for DSL.

There's a box on the outside of the house. I disconnected the wires from
the house and inserted a DSL filter to isolate the whole house.
Then I ran a wire from the phone company side around the perimeter
of the house thru a hole in the wall to my DSL modem. Used about 50 feet
of double twisted pair phone wire. Been working fine since.

Thin stuff designed to run under a carpet is not advised for inside or
outside
use with a dsl modem.
 
M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general added, since a couple weeks ago I
asked them about readjusting my TCP parameters. At most I changed
MTU then to 1492 from 1500 using Dr.TCP, but another program or
webpage continued to show it as 1500. So I don't konw if I changed
it or not, or if I change it and it reset, and my speed didn't improve
or get worse. . Nothing else was attempted to be changed, nor did I
use the Verizon optimizer, which claims to change those parameters
correctly, but I don't know if it gives a way to change things back. .

But now the problem seems to be solved!!!!

Maybe. Maybe not. I wouldn't use it myself unless I had no
alternative.

The only way I can see to really test it, is to move your DSL modem to
your demarc point (NID) and connect it there,

That's a great idea that you and Mike both had. I wish I had been
pursuing this when it was warmer out and the days were longer. A
warm day like today I had to work in the morning, and the weekend will
be colder.
and try a download with
all of your house wiring disconnected.

I didn't realize until you said this that after my last rearranging, I
have only one base station phone next to the modem (and 3 wireless
phones) connected, None of the original house wiring has been
connected for months.

Jumping ahead, I found your post as a whole encouragement enough to
think the wiring might be the problem, so since it was warm, I just
replaced the wire with the round somewhat stiff in-the-wallf stuff,
instead of the jack to phone wire that I had been using for a 50 foot
run.

Using www.speedtest.net, that I had used before. My upload speed was
50 to 85% of what it had been, but my download speed was 2.5 to 3
times what it had been with the same test!! Over 6 new tests.

Using the Verizon provided test -- I wonder if this works for those
who don't have Verizon --
http://my.verizon.com/micro/speedtest/broadband/
my upload speed was the same as it had been but my download speed was
about 3.3 times what it had been with the same test, over 4 new tests.

Hoop-de-doo.

Speedtest.net also measures ping time, which started out very high but
eventually got quicker than it had been. I presume it only pings ..
when? Once at the start of a down or upload? So that's not a major
factor, right? And I don't really care about upload times because I
upload far less, mostly just text for newgroups and email, and I'm not
sitting their waiting, usually.

So everything is great now!!! The wire seems to really make a big
difference. I should have pursued this diligently when I first got
DSL, 4 years ago. (I hate to admit it, but I've been depressed)

I wonder if it slowed down my dial-up too, before then.

They say I should get 500 to 1000 KB download speed. And finally, I'm
in that range instead of 220 at most.

speedtest.net tests
Ping DL in KB UL in KB
410 550 070
494 600 110
221 540 080
98 590 070 Different Baltimore server.
300 520 110 Comcast
91 670 110

Verizon tests
.738 140
.. 734 141
734 140
740 138

I'm thinking that the Verizon values are consistently higher because
there are fewer links in the data chain, right? The data doesn't
have to go via the net to or from comcast.


At each end of the round 4 conductor wire, I attached a surface mount
modular telephone jack that I had saved, and used an 8-inch piece of
modular wire to plug into the NID and the modem. At the NID, I put
the jack box in a ziploc bag, and tomorrow I'll tape the bag even more
shut than it is now.

I didn't cut the wire yet, until I saw if it worked, and I have about
20 feet or more folded back and forth in 10-inch sections. I suppose
that might be lowering my speed also, right?

I read your post and Mike's and if there is anything i should answer,
I plan to do that tomorrow, but right now I want to find a movie or
Youtube thing I can watch, or one of those Republican debates that I
missed when they were live amd my DSL barely worked. .

I watched one video segment from C-span.org before measuring my
speeds, and it was flawless.

Thanks to you both, and William. And Paul and Paul and Char and
everyone from XP who helped me before.
 
D

David H. Lipman

Jan 1, 1970
0
From: "micky said:
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general added, since a couple weeks ago I
asked them about readjusting my TCP parameters. At most I changed
MTU then to 1492 from 1500 using Dr.TCP, but another program or
webpage continued to show it as 1500. So I don't konw if I changed
it or not, or if I change it and it reset, and my speed didn't improve
or get worse. . Nothing else was attempted to be changed, nor did I
use the Verizon optimizer, which claims to change those parameters
correctly, but I don't know if it gives a way to change things back. .

But now the problem seems to be solved!!!!



That's a great idea that you and Mike both had. I wish I had been
pursuing this when it was warmer out and the days were longer. A
warm day like today I had to work in the morning, and the weekend will
be colder.


I didn't realize until you said this that after my last rearranging, I
have only one base station phone next to the modem (and 3 wireless
phones) connected, None of the original house wiring has been
connected for months.

Jumping ahead, I found your post as a whole encouragement enough to
think the wiring might be the problem, so since it was warm, I just
replaced the wire with the round somewhat stiff in-the-wallf stuff,
instead of the jack to phone wire that I had been using for a 50 foot
run.

Using www.speedtest.net, that I had used before. My upload speed was
50 to 85% of what it had been, but my download speed was 2.5 to 3
times what it had been with the same test!! Over 6 new tests.

Using the Verizon provided test -- I wonder if this works for those
who don't have Verizon --
http://my.verizon.com/micro/speedtest/broadband/
my upload speed was the same as it had been but my download speed was
about 3.3 times what it had been with the same test, over 4 new tests.

Hoop-de-doo.

Speedtest.net also measures ping time, which started out very high but
eventually got quicker than it had been. I presume it only pings ..
when? Once at the start of a down or upload? So that's not a major
factor, right? And I don't really care about upload times because I
upload far less, mostly just text for newgroups and email, and I'm not
sitting their waiting, usually.

So everything is great now!!! The wire seems to really make a big
difference. I should have pursued this diligently when I first got
DSL, 4 years ago. (I hate to admit it, but I've been depressed)

I wonder if it slowed down my dial-up too, before then.

They say I should get 500 to 1000 KB download speed. And finally, I'm
in that range instead of 220 at most.

speedtest.net tests
Ping DL in KB UL in KB
410 550 070
494 600 110
221 540 080
98 590 070 Different Baltimore server.
300 520 110 Comcast
91 670 110

Verizon tests
.738 140
. 734 141
734 140
740 138

I'm thinking that the Verizon values are consistently higher because
there are fewer links in the data chain, right? The data doesn't
have to go via the net to or from comcast.


At each end of the round 4 conductor wire, I attached a surface mount
modular telephone jack that I had saved, and used an 8-inch piece of
modular wire to plug into the NID and the modem. At the NID, I put
the jack box in a ziploc bag, and tomorrow I'll tape the bag even more
shut than it is now.

I didn't cut the wire yet, until I saw if it worked, and I have about
20 feet or more folded back and forth in 10-inch sections. I suppose
that might be lowering my speed also, right?

I read your post and Mike's and if there is anything i should answer,
I plan to do that tomorrow, but right now I want to find a movie or
Youtube thing I can watch, or one of those Republican debates that I
missed when they were live amd my DSL barely worked. .

I watched one video segment from C-span.org before measuring my
speeds, and it was flawless.

Thanks to you both, and William. And Paul and Paul and Char and
everyone from XP who helped me before.

DSL must use Twisted Pair and the MTU for PPPoE DSL is 1492.
 
M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
(snip)


There is however, flat and superflat Cat5/5E cable designed for that
exact purpose.

So that would have modular ends and plug into my phone company NID
and also into the DSL modem, right, and it would work right there?



My storm and inner windows don't fit very tightly, and I coulld shut
them on the the indoor wall-to-phone wire I was using with no
crushing, just a crease, like the crease inside your elbow or knee,
inside the two 90^ bends for each window. .

Would bends like that and running right next to the aluminum windows
frames for about an inch each lower my DSL speed much if I used the
flat CAT5E cable?


I hate to drill holes in the upstairs exterior wall or window frame
when I expect to fix the house wiring eventually.
 
M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK - You have the "inside wiring" running from the NID to the modem.
What else is connected to the telephone line, either in the house or
at the NID? Do you have a real telephone hooked up at all? If there

Just one real telephone (with 3 wireless extensions from it.
is any house wiring connected directly to the NID, without going thru
the splitter that normally splits the internet frequencies from the
audio frequencies, there are alll sorts of bad scenarios. First tell
us more about what your connections are, and then I and others can
give you a much more detailed answer.

As you probably saw, replacing the wall-jack-to-phone wire I was using
from the modem to the NID with the rather stiff, round,
inside-the-wall wire multiplied my download rate by atout 3.

This is not the stiffest phone wire made, either. I think I've seen
both flimsier and stiffer wire of the same 4-wire 4-color design.


For that matter, my wall-jack-to-phone wire probably wasn't the best
quality either. It came from a 100' roll from Radio Shack iirc. A
lot of wire doesn't come with ratings and I don't know which ratings
matter, and what values are good or bad.
 
M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's not the thickness. It's (I assume) the cable's characteristic impedance
and lossiness that determine its usability..



If it's low-speed DSL, why should that be a surprise?
You're right. I ahould have realized that low is slow. Please
disregard my previuos post. ;-)
 
W

Wond

Jan 1, 1970
0
Will flat, modular, outsde the wall phone wire run DSL for 50 feet? Or
do I need thicker wire?
Better to make longer runs with twisted pair, IMO.
 
M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Did I say thanks? I should have.
So that would have modular ends and plug into my phone company NID
and also into the DSL modem, right, and it would work right there?

Never mind. I see that it would.


I found this cable, although it's CAT6, not CAT5.
This company only has flat in CAT6, no CAT5. Is that okay?
http://www.primuscable.com/store/p/...h-Cable-RJ45-CM-PVC-Snagless-45-FT-Black.aspx
CAT6 550MHz Flat Ethernet Patch Cable RJ45 CM PVC Snagless 45 FT Black
$9.68 plus 12 shipping. + almost 22 dollars
T568B (AT&T 258A) Wired
UTP Unshielded Twist Pair
CM Type PVC Jacket
32AWG Flat 4pair Stranded Copper Wire
50 Micron Gold Plated RJ45 Plug
RoHS compliant
The cables are only a slim 1.2mm thick that gives a plenty of
ventilation room for network rack wiring.
This is the longest this store has. I have to see if 45 feet is
enough.


Or
http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/cat-5e-cable/10x6-62250.htm
CAT5E Flat UTP Cable, 32AWG, Black, 50 ft Twisted , stranded,
RoHS Compliant $3.95, how can it be so cheap? Plus 7 dollars
shipping, (since the order is under $50) = 11 dollars, half the
price of the first one, but perhaps too cheap to be worth it?



Also, in white but I want black.
http://www.amazon.com/CAT-Flat-Cable-32AWG-White/dp/B000I994X2 CAT 5
E Flat UTP Cable, 32AWG, 50 ft $13.39 Free shipping. ! No mention
of twisted pairs, but I gather all Cat5 is twisted pair.
 
M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cat6 is higher spec/speed than 5E, which in turn is higher spec than
Cat5.
.......

Try this one: http://www.vpi.us/cable-sf.html (first hit on googling
"superflat cat5"). Up to 50ft Cat5E.

This one is very good. $17 + shipping. Thanks a lot.

I'm embarrassed to say that I only googled on flat, not superflat. I
guess I thought the same companies would sell both, bu I guess not.

Hmmm. I hate to seem ungrateful but I figure you'll want to know. It
says .08 inches, which is iiuc 2 mm. The one from primuscable is
1.2mm, even though it only calls itself flat.

(The cheapest one, Cablewholesale, has a spec sheet,,
http://www.cablewholesale.com/pdfspecs/10x6-6xxxx.pdf is confusing,
Jacket: Min thickness: 0.45mm Good.
Jacket: Overall diameter: 6.00 +/- 0.20 mm 14 times as much?
Must be the width. 8 times for 8 wires and then 3 spaces in betwen
and 2 on the edges. Yes. So 0.45mm would be very thin too, but this
supplies all the DSL so I think I'll pass on this cheapest one. )
 
I

Ian Jackson

Jan 1, 1970
0
micky said:
Will flat, modular, outsde the wall phone wire run DSL for 50 feet?
Or do I need thicker wire?
The short answer is 'probably'. After all, if you are on an old type of
phone system, a twin wire phone line has brought the DSL signal all the
way from the exchange to your house. Another 50 feet isn't really going
to make a lot of difference.
 
M

micky

Jan 1, 1970
0
The short answer is 'probably'. After all, if you are on an old type of
phone system, a twin wire phone line has brought the DSL signal all the
way from the exchange to your house. Another 50 feet isn't really going
to make a lot of difference.

Apparently the problem wasn't the twin wire, but the thin wire.
Replacing it with round four-conductor 4-color wire (using only 2 of
them) , (that I got out of the trash 20 or 30 years ago) actually a
piece 10 or 20 feet longer than I took out, more than tripled my
download speed.

The Verizon guy had told me that the special under the carpet (but not
Cat-5, just wire) 4-conductor wire was no good.

I taped the space around the window, and II still haven't bought the
flat CAT-5 for some reason.

P&M
 
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