9V rechargeable batteries and chargers?

[Joerg]

Hi Folks,

At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:

http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C4...D80/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hpc_30/180-3329658-7661802

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here is? Or
knows of even better systems?

Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until next
Sunday.

9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.

 

[Martin Riddle]

Hi Folks,

At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems not
to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out in
the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life out
of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay with
9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would like
to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:

http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C4...D80/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hpc_30/180-3329658-7661802

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here is? Or
knows of even better systems?

Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.

9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.

What about Varta?
<http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/en/Products/Rechargeables/Power-Accus/9V-200-mAh.aspx#9V-200-mAh>

All batteries will have a limited lifetime. I would say if you got a
year or two out of them, your doing good.

Cheers

 

[Joerg]

What about Varta?
<http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/en/Products/Rechargeables/Power-Accus/9V-200-mAh.aspx#9V-200-mAh>

Those are a bit marginal in capacity. Only 6 cells (so 8.4V) and 200mAh.

All batteries will have a limited lifetime. I would say if you got a
year or two out of them, your doing good.

Lately it wasn't that great anymore. The newer chargers seem to wear out
faster, LEDs lit dimply, and so on. One blew a primary switcher. The
batteries don't last as long as they used to, even fresh ones.

So I am looking for something a tad better. Like usual, never really
happy with the status quo

 

[Phil Allison]

"Joke"

Those are a bit marginal in capacity. Only 6 cells (so 8.4V) and 200mAh.

** 8.4 / 1.2 = 7 cells.

Perfect for any radio mic that use a 9V battery.



** The OP is buying Chinese consumer level junk and expecting professional
results.


.... Phil

 

[Martin Riddle]

"Joke"


** 8.4 / 1.2 = 7 cells.

Perfect for any radio mic that use a 9V battery.




** The OP is buying Chinese consumer level junk and expecting
professional results.


... Phil

Rechargeable 9v's always seemed to be marginal.
But, we had used the Vartas (NiCd) years ago, and they lasted for about
a year before they were toast.
They are a German company, the batteries are probably made in China.

Cheers

 

[Joerg]

NEXcell seems pretty good for low self discharge. I used a couple AAAs
in a TV remote control. Still working today after 10 months on a
single charge. I see a 8.4 volt / 200mAh version here:

http://www.nexcellglobal.com/consumer.htm

Thanks, Bill. I'll check those out but it's a bit confusing. There seem
to be four versions that look the same. 8.4V and 9.6V, and then both
either with 160mAh (which wouldn't be enough for us) and with 200mAh.
And they seem to have screwed up or at least mixed up the data in the
technical info tabs

 

[Joerg]

What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

 

[asdf]

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them off
or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop charging
when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not sensitive it
could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

 

[Joerg]

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

 

[Joerg]

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them off
or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

Those are very fancy uC-controlled chargers specifically designed for
NiMH. They cost north of $100 each.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop charging
when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not sensitive it
could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

Yup, they need to find out the cell number and then count the number of
delta-V events, plus time-out if they are too unequal. All not rocket
science but sometimes when I see charger designs my impression is that
for them a lot is like rocket science.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

That's a problem in a church as self-discharge in 9V NiMH is high. You'd
have some batteries that are in there 1wk and other maybe 8wks. Trying
to get a rotating scheme going is totally not feasible in such a scenario.

 

[Martin Riddle]

Those are very fancy uC-controlled chargers specifically designed for
NiMH. They cost north of $100 each.



Yup, they need to find out the cell number and then count the number
of
delta-V events, plus time-out if they are too unequal. All not rocket
science but sometimes when I see charger designs my impression is that
for them a lot is like rocket science.




That's a problem in a church as self-discharge in 9V NiMH is high.
You'd
have some batteries that are in there 1wk and other maybe 8wks. Trying
to get a rotating scheme going is totally not feasible in such a
scenario.

Ok, so try Li-Poly. 520mah!
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/627506-REG/iPower_IP9V520_9V_Li_Polymer_520mAh_Battery.html>

4 pcs 500mah and charger...
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/501664-REG/iPower_FC9VX44K_FC_9VX44_Fast_Smart_9V.html>

They actually have a good track record from the reviews. BH Photo
carries good stuff.

Cheers

 

[Joerg]

Ok, so try Li-Poly. 520mah!
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/627506-REG/iPower_IP9V520_9V_Li_Polymer_520mAh_Battery.html>

4 pcs 500mah and charger...
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/501664-REG/iPower_FC9VX44K_FC_9VX44_Fast_Smart_9V.html>

They actually have a good track record from the reviews. BH Photo
carries good stuff.

Thanks. Yes, BH is a good place, we've bought from them before. But
LiPoly is only 7.4V nominal for the usual stack of two. That's a tad
marginal for our mikes.

Anyhow, we just ordered this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817355041
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817355040

If they really hold the 300mAh minus 20% marketing glitz factor or
whatever we'd be really happy.

The other thing one has to keep in mind at non-techie places such as
churches is the occasional mishap. Like when someone sticks a LiPoly
battery or LiIon into a regular charger and *POOF*

 

[Martin Riddle]

Thanks. Yes, BH is a good place, we've bought from them before. But
LiPoly is only 7.4V nominal for the usual stack of two. That's a tad
marginal for our mikes.

Anyhow, we just ordered this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817355041
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817355040

If they really hold the 300mAh minus 20% marketing glitz factor or
whatever we'd be really happy.

The other thing one has to keep in mind at non-techie places such as
churches is the occasional mishap. Like when someone sticks a LiPoly
battery or LiIon into a regular charger and *POOF*

I'd like to see how those work out. After the not so good results from
the Tenergy batteries. ( I have the D's and AA's)
The Tenergy batteries suffer from self discharge from what I see. The
D's are working better than the AA's, but they are 9000mAh.
The Sanyo Eneloops turned out to be the best. It seems the higher
capacity NiMh cells have a higher self discharge rate, and rapidly loose
capacity. Which results in a short life.

Cheers

 

[ehsjr]

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them off
or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop charging
when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not sensitive it
could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Ed

 

[Joerg]

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

 

[Joerg]

Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

 

[Joerg]

I'd like to see how those work out. After the not so good results from
the Tenergy batteries. ( I have the D's and AA's)
The Tenergy batteries suffer from self discharge from what I see. The
D's are working better than the AA's, but they are 9000mAh.

I'll try to remember to give feedback in a year or so, then we'd know
whether they really hold up. These batteries are not exactly cheap so
they have to withstand at least a few dozen cycles. I'll never believe
the 1000 cycle claims anyway, never seen one that truly did that, or
even close.

With the Tenergy 9V NiMH I am not all that enthused either which is one
reason for trying out another brand.

The Sanyo Eneloops turned out to be the best. It seems the higher
capacity NiMh cells have a higher self discharge rate, and rapidly loose
capacity. Which results in a short life.

Sanyo doesn't seem to make'em in 9V. Plus we really don't need low
self-discharge because they will be left on the charger at all times
except when in use. Capacity is all that matters to us.

 

[Joerg]

It wound up costing us probably $150 per year, but the priest didn't
have a very strong voice, so failures were very noticeable.

Oh, that must be a smaller church. We usually have at least three mikes
going throughout two services plus an education hour. Pastor, vicar,
pulpit mike, and sometimes a fourth for the DCE. Assuming two per mike
per Sunday that's worst case eight per Sunday, plus on special days, say
60 sets a year, that's 480 batteries. At $1.50 that would be $720.
Versus under $200 for the new Maha set which (hopefully) lasts us
through two years. So we'd save $1200 over that time. That buys a ton of
good food for the food closet which is always aching for more money
these days.

 

[ehsjr]

Oh, that must be a smaller church. We usually have at least three mikes
going throughout two services plus an education hour. Pastor, vicar,
pulpit mike, and sometimes a fourth for the DCE. Assuming two per mike
per Sunday that's worst case eight per Sunday, plus on special days, say
60 sets a year, that's 480 batteries. At $1.50 that would be $720.
Versus under $200 for the new Maha set which (hopefully) lasts us
through two years. So we'd save $1200 over that time. That buys a ton of
good food for the food closet which is always aching for more money
these days.

Even if money was no object, replacing the batteries after
each use is a hassle. Much better if they can just pick the
mic up from the charger and be ready to go. I wish I had
a reasonable answer for you. All I can come up with is that
it might end up worth the effort to modify all of the chargers,
as horrible as that sounds. And it does sound horrible. :-(

Ed

 

[Joerg]

Even if money was no object, replacing the batteries after
each use is a hassle. Much better if they can just pick the
mic up from the charger and be ready to go. I wish I had
a reasonable answer for you. All I can come up with is that
it might end up worth the effort to modify all of the chargers,
as horrible as that sounds. And it does sound horrible. :-(

Unfortunately these mikes have no cradle chargers. One must swap 9V
batteries. However, Sennheiser has done a nice job in that you can swing
them open in a way that the battery sails into your cupped hand while
holding the new battery between thumb and index finger. Then plop in the
new one, old one back on the charge station -> done. I've done this
while crouched on the floor behind the choir so it won't disturb the
service. Luckily we have a side entrance right there.