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air core transformer efficiency

M

manifold_1

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fuxue Jin said:
This is a very interesting suggestion.

The transformer is used as (more or less) a normal power transformer to
drive a low dropout regulator. The whole final unit is under a strong
megnetic field. Also a 5000V HIPOT between primary and secondary is
required.

I don't expect much high efficiency out of it, but want to do the best
if there is any solution.

Thanks for the posting!
FJ

How fast does the strong magnetic field change? You may get some
unexpected behavior if the surrounding magnetic circuit induces
current in the air core transformer. It may jump out of it's fasteners
or induced high voltages may cause damage to other components in the
circuit.

I think the torriodal design would help solve the problem; induced
currents in one direction should be cancelled out by induced currents
in the other direction. Oh, unless the ambient field is normal to the
plane of the toroid, then it looks like one big loop.

It will not be easy to wind and get a 5KV rating. A transformer house
may be able to help you with a nice design that will meet the 5KV
rating and save your hands in the process. Proto rates used to be a
few hundred dollars for 2 to five pieces. Get the design worked out
first and then shop the design around and talk to them about what you
are doing. They are usually very knowledgable about designs.

There are products that use piezo electric crystals to transfer power
with very high isolation voltage ratings. They are primarily for
isolation of 20kV and higher. The efficiency is not so good but they
are immune to magnetic effects.
 
T

Tom Bruhns

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fritz Schlunder said:
You must use a full bridge or half bridge topology to drive the primary if
you want anywhere near decent power output and efficiency. Do not use a
single switch converter topology, it puts allot of stress on the switch and
will not yeild much power output at all. You should use as close to 50%
duty cycle each direction as feasible, but make sure to insert some dead
time in the gate drive signals to prevent cross conduction.
....
If you think of it as an RF coupling device using a resonant tank,
it's quite easy to drive with a single-ended class C amplifier at high
efficiency. Once you think of things in those terms, you realize that
people have been using single-ended amplifiers at power levels to tens
of kilowatts, and often at plate efficiencies around 80%, for many
decades. You can use the same principles at the milliwatt level if
you wish. Careful design with solid state devices should get you to
modestly better efficiencies.

Cheers,
Tom
 
T

Tony Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom Bruhns said:
If you think of it as an RF coupling device using a resonant
tank, it's quite easy to drive with a single-ended class C
amplifier at high efficiency. Once you think of things in those
terms, you realize that people have been using single-ended
amplifiers at power levels to tens of kilowatts, and often at
plate efficiencies around 80%, for many decades. You can use the
same principles at the milliwatt level if you wish. Careful
design with solid state devices should get you to modestly better
efficiencies.

Yes, I was browsing through an old book last week,
"Electron Tube Circuits", by Samuel Seely. As you
say, power transfer efficiencies (across the tank)
of around 80% were routinely achieved.

The interesting twist described by Seely is the use
of a double-tuned tank.

+-----+-----+ +------||---+
| | M | C2 |
| )|||( |
| Lp)|||(Ls |
| )|||( \
C1=== | | /Rload
| \ \ \
| Rp/ /Rs |
| \ \ |
| | | |
+-----+-----+ +-----------+

The primary is parallel-resonated and the secondary
is series-resonated. In this way the mutual inductance
(M) reflects Rload (plus Rs) back into the primary as a
pure resistance (effectively in series with Rp). The
driver sees an overall resistive load.

Seely gives an estimate of the overall power transfer
efficiency in terms of the pri/sec loaded/unloaded Q's.

Transfer Efficiency = (1 - Qlp/Qup)(1 - Qls/Qus).

Where Qlp = unloaded primary Q, etc.

The loaded Q's, Qlp and Qls, cannot be less than about
10 to 20 for proper harmonic suppression. So if the
ratio of both loaded/unloaded Q's is about 1/10, the
the transfer efficiency is about 0.9x0.9.... 81%.

Note though that that circuit has to be driven with current
pulses, presumably optimised for operation with tubes. It
might be useful to speculate on series-resonating the primary
as well, for voltage-driven operation.
 
B

Boris Mohar

Jan 1, 1970
0
According the people who have tried before, mu metal didn't provide
enough shielding effect to isolate the core.

Can you wind another set of turns to buck out the external magnetic field?

--

Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs http://www3.sympatico.ca/borism/
Aurora, Ontario
 
R

R.Legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
One can just resonate the primary to solve this dilemma.

John

A two-transistor forward, or a forward,flyback or asymetrical circuit
with a switched snubber also recover magnetizing energy. The latter
versions can recover this energy to the output, saving you the trouble
of reprocessing it.

RL
 
T

Tom Bruhns

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for the additional clarification, Tony!

Yes, that circuit is exactly what's used in a "link-coupled"
transmitter output. And if you have room for a coil 1 inch in
diameter and an inch or so long, at 20MHz it can have an unloaded Q in
excess of 400. It's not clear to me that harmonic suppression is
important in this application, so the loaded Q might even be on the
low side of 10, but 10 is a good figure to shoot for. Then you can
have a tank circuit efficiency around 95%. The broadcast transmitter
I worked with back in the 60's had an overall plate circuit efficiency
of nearly 80%, and that was DC plate input power to power fed to the
transmission line, so that efficiency includes substantial plate
dissipation in the tubes. It was a push-pull primary version of the
same circuit.

For the OP: if you go this way, then you will maximize the efficiency
by maximizing the ratio of Qu/Ql. Qu increases with frequency for a
given coil size, and with coil size. For a coil that's about as long
as its diameter, a useful first estimate of Qu is
100*diam(inches)*sqrt(f(MHz)). Qu is lowered by metal in the area:
best to keep the coil in a volume with a coil-diameter's space on all
sides. You get to do some circuit analysis to determine Ql, but in
general the heavier your loading, the lower Ql.

Cheers,
Tom
 
T

Tony Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom Bruhns said:
For the OP: if you go this way, then you will maximize the
efficiency by maximizing the ratio of Qu/Ql. Qu increases with
frequency for a given coil size, and with coil size. For a coil
that's about as long as its diameter, a useful first estimate of
Qu is 100*diam(inches)*sqrt(f(MHz)). Qu is lowered by metal in
the area: best to keep the coil in a volume with a
coil-diameter's space on all sides. You get to do some circuit
analysis to determine Ql, but in general the heavier your
loading, the lower Ql.

A high L/C ratio is usually associated with high
power transfers.

Tom, do you know if there is an optimum format for a
a resonant air-cored transformer?

eg, Is it solenoids alongside, solenoids within each
other, or something?

My instincts would be toroidal, but the book dismisses
toroidal resonant inductors as "having excessive winding
resistance".
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tony Williams wrote...
Tom, do you know if there is an optimum format for a
a resonant air-cored transformer?

eg, Is it solenoids alongside, solenoids within each
other, or something?

My instincts would be toroidal, but the book dismisses
toroidal resonant inductors as "having excessive winding
resistance".

Do you remember my experiments with large litz-wire
Murgatroyd D inductors? Toroidal air-coil inductors
also suffer from high proximity-effect losses at the
inner region where the windings compress together.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
T

Tony Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield Hill said:
Do you remember my experiments with large litz-wire
Murgatroyd D inductors? Toroidal air-coil inductors
also suffer from high proximity-effect losses at the

Only vaguely. What I remember most about that thread
is not really understanding it.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
A high L/C ratio is usually associated with high
power transfers.

Tom, do you know if there is an optimum format for a
a resonant air-cored transformer?

eg, Is it solenoids alongside, solenoids within each
other, or something?

My instincts would be toroidal, but the book dismisses
toroidal resonant inductors as "having excessive winding
resistance".


A torroidal air-core coax-wound transmission line transformer would be
fun. Zero leakage inductance, high Q, zero external field, excellent
insulation.

John
 
R

R.Legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
My instincts would be toroidal, but the book dismisses
Do you remember my experiments with large litz-wire
Murgatroyd D inductors? Toroidal air-coil inductors
also suffer from high proximity-effect losses at the
inner region where the windings compress together.

This averages out. I'd be interested to know what the book reference
actually says - whether there are practical references cited.

Toroids are avoided usually in any commercial application because they
are difficult to fabricate in a controlled manner. They are more
common in accellerator designs, where magnetic field problems are
unique in amplitude - this application is in itself somewhat obscure.
They are also more common in military and space environments. (or
TEMPEST devices that are difficult to enclose for one reason or
another)

I'm still curious as to how this circuit is intended to be applied
without infecting the system with EMI.

The 'large magnetic field' is likely present precisely because it is
needed to measure very small EM effects. Introducing extraneous noise
is likely to be detrimental.

RL
 
T

Tom Bruhns

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Tony (and others),

I think it depends on what you mean by "optimum." In things I've
dealt with, it hasn't been an issue most of the time. That is, losses
elsewhere dominate, and there has generally been plenty of room for
large inductors. Of course there are practical issues, too: what's
optimal from a performance standpoint may not be from a construction
standpoint. I do note that if you couple the coils very closely, they
no longer tune separately. I haven't analyzed things in detail, but I
guess with perfect coupling, they behave like one inductor.

When I worked on quadrupole mass spectrometers, I used to visit with
the fellow who was doing the RF drive work. We wanted high Q; as I
recall, we got something on the order of 300 at 1.00MHz with coils
that were about 1 inch diameter, by placing two coils with axes
parallel and separated by perhaps 1.25 inches. Each was roughly an
inch long. They were connected in series to form one inductor. The
shield around them was more fun: the engineer measured the direction
of the field from the coils, and cut slots in the shield oriented to
break up the current. It seems to me that makes the shield less
effective, but I wasn't going to tell him how to do his job, and the
proof is in how it all works.

A high L/C ratio presumably means low loaded Q, if the load is shunt.
For a series load, it would be a high C/L ratio for low loaded Q.
Guess I just think in terms of Qu and Ql and let the L and C fall
where they may...and if something is impractical, I look for ways to
do impedance transformations or for other topologies.

Cheers,
Tom
 
R

R.Legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
A torroidal air-core coax-wound transmission line transformer would be
fun. Zero leakage inductance, high Q, zero external field, excellent
insulation.

But very large, when using 5Kv hipot-able coax.

Biomedical-safety-grade toroids can be achieved using simple
three-layer film wrap between primary and secondary, providing the
lead-outs are suitably dressed.

RL
 
R

R.Legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fuxue Jin said:
I don't expect much high efficiency out of it, but want to do the best
if there is any solution.

Stumbled across two references to efficiency of the solenoid shape.
The first looks at an transformer application around 100W, but I think
they are using impractical winding methods for a 5KV hipot. The second
is only a thermal evaluation, and there seems to be no reference to
layering.

"Air-Core Transformer for High Frequency Power Conversion"
K. W. E. Cheng, H. L. Chan and D. Sutanto
EPE'99

http://manuales.elo.utfsm.cl/conferences/seminarios/EPFL/pc/papers/338.pdf

"ANALYTIC THERMAL MODELLING of an AIR - CORED COIL"
C.Coillot, Y.Patin, F.Forest, P.Chantrenne
EPE'99

http://manuales.elo.utfsm.cl/conferences/seminarios/EPFL/pc/papers/471.pdf

RL
 
F

Fritz Schlunder

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.Legg said:
Stumbled across two references to efficiency of the solenoid shape.
The first looks at an transformer application around 100W, but I think
they are using impractical winding methods for a 5KV hipot. The second
is only a thermal evaluation, and there seems to be no reference to
layering.

"Air-Core Transformer for High Frequency Power Conversion"
K. W. E. Cheng, H. L. Chan and D. Sutanto
EPE'99

http://manuales.elo.utfsm.cl/conferences/seminarios/EPFL/pc/papers/338.pdf


Thanks for posting this link R. Legg. It makes for a very interesting read.

Unfortunately the authors don't have a clue what they are jabbering about.
I'm sure it dazzles most readers in BS however, and probably fullfilled
their university's "research" requirements for its professors.

There are numerous very serious problems with it, but something that really
caught my eye was their choice of Schottky diodes for the circuit of figure
8. They use the MBR1045 which is a 10A rated 45V schottky diode. Then they
say a couples lines under figure 8 they have an input voltage of 60V and a
19:19 (or 1:1) turns ratio on their transformer. This means their diodes
get to see an abusive 60V or so during some parts of the cycle. I wonder if
they blasted a whole bunch of those MBR1045 (and the IRF530N devices) before
they finally found a set that didn't avalanche to destruction immediately
and could block the 60V.
 
R

R.Legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for posting this link R. Legg. It makes for a very interesting read.
Unfortunately the authors don't have a clue what they are jabbering about.
I'm sure it dazzles most readers in BS however, and probably fullfilled
their university's "research" requirements for its professors.
As with most articles, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. You
will often find that there are problems with an author's approach to a
particular application. I can only suggest that you make these
observations known to the author. There are many reasons why this
paper may have been presented at EPE'99 in it's present state that
have nothing to do with actual research performed or results and
conclusions obtained.

It may be a poorly cribbed summary of more extensive work, which, if
you do query results directly, may be offered in response.
Unfortunately, a time lapse of four years can be a serious obstruction
to such communications, as authors move on.
There are numerous very serious problems with it, but something that really
caught my eye was their choice of Schottky diodes for the circuit of figure
8. They use the MBR1045 which is a 10A rated 45V schottky diode. Then they
say a couples lines under figure 8 they have an input voltage of 60V and a
19:19 (or 1:1) turns ratio on their transformer. This means their diodes
get to see an abusive 60V or so during some parts of the cycle.

The topology is series primary resonant, with a parallel-loaded
series-resonant secondary rectifier. Depending on the ratios of Llk
(they indicate that added series inductance was introduced) to Lout.
The primary series inductor Llk may have dominated, in which case the
output voltage will have effectively clamped the voltage across the
rectifiers (Vout=24V) in spite of the presence of 'Lout'. The authors
don't have to tell you this, for their research to be valid. They
don't have know that this is what saved their devices from failing -
if this was in fact the case.

"Llk and Rlk are the sum of primary and secondary leakage inductances
and resistances and additional series resonant inductor respectively"

We also know, from their explicit statement, that magnetizing
inductance values were low - I expect that magnetizing Lm should more
truthfully have been drawn in the circuit, producing a further
effective input voltage reduction.
I wonder if
they blasted a whole bunch of those MBR1045 (and the IRF530N devices) before
they finally found a set that didn't avalanche to destruction immediately
and could block the 60V.

It is not their duty to report how many parts popped while collecting
data, if this was indeed the case.

What struck me as the biggest limitation in this presentation, was
that this device was not compared to a part wound without
superconductive media. Obviously, the windings of a normal device
would not have had a 25DegC impedance of 180Ohms or greater, as this
device did.

The real proof of the value of the material change would be to test
the superconductive and normal parts at both cryogenic and normal
temperatures. This would give a figure of merit to:

a) cryogenics alone

b)superconductive winding media alone.

At a minimum, it would have produced data that others could refer to,
when using normal conductors at normal temperatures, which must be
considered as a kind of baseline.

Perhaps this data was collected. In this event the shortcoming is in
the paper alone - not in the authors or the research. Keep them
separate in your mind, to maintain faith in humin beens and your own
sanity.

RL
 
T

Tony Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom Bruhns said:
I think it depends on what you mean by "optimum." In things I've
dealt with, it hasn't been an issue most of the time. That is,
losses elsewhere dominate, and there has generally been plenty of
room for large inductors. Of course there are practical issues,
too: what's optimal from a performance standpoint may not be
from a construction standpoint. I do note that if you couple the
coils very closely, they no longer tune separately. I haven't
analyzed things in detail, but I guess with perfect coupling,
they behave like one inductor.

There are sums in other books (related more to if transformers)
that optimise the coupling factor for highest current in the
secondary tank.

[snip, thank you Tom]
A high L/C ratio presumably means low loaded Q, if the load is
shunt. For a series load, it would be a high C/L ratio for low
loaded Q. Guess I just think in terms of Qu and Ql and let the L
and C fall where they may...and if something is impractical, I
look for ways to do impedance transformations or for other
topologies.

I suppose that, if the load and loaded-Q are both defined,
then L and C are also automatically defined.
 
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