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Can a capacitor let DC current through?

B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Bowey said:
A resistor has no dielectric barrier. A capacitor does.

Why do you believe "An alternating current either flows "through" both, or
it flows through neither...?"

In a sense, though, there's no real difference between
the two from the "dielectric barrier" angle. To examine
this further, let's for the moment ignore the "resistor"
question and just look at the difference between AC
conduction through a capacitor vs. a plain conductor.

Electrical energy passes through any "conductive" path by
virtue of the interaction of the fields of charged particles.
In a conductor, this occurs at the atomic/subatomic
level; in a capacitor, the interaction-through-fields
clearly happens on a physically gross level, through the
dielectric, and individual charge carriers cannot pass
through the dieletric. But that really doesn't matter -
to pass electrical energy or an electrical signal, it is
the motion of carriers "downstream," induced by a
similar motion "upstream," that matters - not that a
particular carrier physically passes through the entire
length of the conductive path.

In the case of AC, what goes on within a conductor
in terms of the charge carrier motion is very interesting.
Imagine a perfect conductor as being a frictionless pipe
filled with ping-pong balls which just fit inside the pipe.
If you push in a ball at one end, a ball pops out the other
end (with the time between these two events governed
by the physical attributes - elasticity and such - of the
balls). There has been a transfer of energy, even though
the ball you put in at the one end really didn't get very
far and is certainly not the same ball that popped out
at the far end. If we model AC this way, then you take
one ball at the near end and alternately push it in and
somehow suck it out AT THAT END. And at the far
end, we have a ball which is behaving in exactly the same
way, alternately popping out and being sucked back in.
We can again transfer energy (or information) through this
process, even though the ball we're pushing/pulling on
at the near end NEVER makes it beyond that point!

Going back to actual electricity, let's further note that if we
have a capacitor of sufficient size, there is no way at all to
distinguish the capacitor-in-series case from the "straight
conductor" case, if all we have to look at is the situation
"downstream" of the capacitor. The only way the two
cases could be distinguished in any event is through the
capacitor's effect on the phase relationship between
current and voltage, which, for a sufficiently large
capacitance, becomes negligible. (The only other means
you could use to distinguish these cases at all, given
access to any information you want, would be to somehow
"tag" individual electrons at the "upstream" side, and then
wait a sufficiently long time on the "downstream" side to
see if those particular carriers are coming through. But
you'd have to wait a very long time to be certain...)

Another way to say this is that an infinite capacitance is
indistinguishable from a "short circuit" (a "perfect"
conductive path), again unless you have the ability to
tag individual charge carriers. This makes sense because
a truly infinite capacitance would always have the ability
to make the corresponding change in charge on the
"downstream" plate as ANY amount of charge enters
or leaves the "upstream" plate. You can envision an
"infinite" capacitance as either possessing plates of
infinite area (if you can ignore concerns re the propagation
times across the plate itself) or (possibly better) as
having an infinitely thin dielectric (which equates to
saying we have a zero-thickness "magic barrier"
inserted between two conductors, such that individual
carriers cannot pass through but still have an effect
on the carriers on the other side, as if the barrier were
not there).

In the real world, of course, we can't have infinite capacitances
(or at the very least, you can't easily go down to Radio
Shack and buy one...:)), so we have to rely on the
frequency of the AC, relative to the capacitance, to
make the effects of the capacitor effectively "drop out"
of the circuit. In more familiar terms, we would say that
for a sufficiently low capacitive reactance has no
significant effect when inserted in series into an AC
circuit; there is no way to discern its presence by looking
at the conditions "downstream" of the capacitor. In any
practical sense of the words, then, we would have to say
that yes, a capacitor DOES "pass AC."

Bringing resistance into the picture, as opposed to a perfect
conductor, is only relevant if we want to compare the effects
of resistance to a comparable capacitive reactance. And
in this case, we would fall back to the fundamental difference
between these two forms of impedance: resistances dissipate
energy, while reactances merely store it and return it to the
circuit later in time (which results in the voltage/current phase
effects in a reactive circuit). But there's still nothing going on
here that would cause us to say that the resistor is actually
"passing AC," while the capacitor (reactance) is not.

Bob M.
 
A

Anonymous.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Myers said:
.....If we model AC this way, then you take
one ball at the near end and alternately push it in and
somehow suck it out AT THAT END. And at the far
end, we have a ball which is behaving in exactly the same
way, alternately popping out and being sucked back in.....

Which raises ethical questions about the behaviour of the
power companies! 50 times per second (60 in Yankland)
they give you some electrons with the right hand and then
take them back with the left hand.

As you ain't allowed to keep them, and they are only on loan
for such a brief period, then it seems morally wrong for them
to charge you for the privilege!
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anonymous. said:
Which raises ethical questions about the behaviour of the
power companies! 50 times per second (60 in Yankland)
they give you some electrons with the right hand and then
take them back with the left hand.

Precisely! Or, as a sign in the men's room at a local
drinking establishment succinctly puts it:

"We don't sell beer, we only rent it."

Bob M.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Which raises ethical questions about the behaviour of the
power companies! 50 times per second (60 in Yankland)
they give you some electrons with the right hand and then
take them back with the left hand.

As you ain't allowed to keep them, and they are only on loan
for such a brief period, then it seems morally wrong for them
to charge you for the privilege!

But on their trip to your house and back, they do work, like
lighting light bulbs, cooking, heating water, etc. - so what
you're paying for is the power you dissipate, or, over the
course of a month, the energy that the power company sends
to you, you use for awhile, and throw away. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Precisely! Or, as a sign in the men's room at a local
drinking establishment succinctly puts it:

"We don't sell beer, we only rent it."

Ick! Who wants to be the second cusomer to rent a particular pint?

Ewww!

Thanks,
Rich
 
C

Chuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote:

SNIP
"AC" and "DC" are extremely vague terms, and a capacitor doesn't care
about terminology; most capacitors are made in foreign countries and
don't even understand English. Whether a signal is one or the other
depends on the time frame over which it's observed. A 1-cycle-per-year
sine wave sure looks like DC if you observe it for an hour.

SNIP

Part of the problem is that AC and DC
are, as John said, extremely vague
terms. They have no fundamental basis in
theory other than as a shorthand in
those cases where the context makes
their meaning clear.

AC and DC are descriptive terms that can
cause confusion whenever applied to
anything other than a pure, time-varying
sinusoidal voltage or a time-invariant
voltage, respectively. That these are
quasi-bogus terms becomes clear when we
recall that they have no units! They
don't appear in formulas. We can't
measure the AC-ness or DC-ness of a
circuit or device. Would electronics
theory even miss AC and DC?

I wonder whether there are other
descriptive terms used in electronics
the way AC and DC are used. Offhand, I
can't think of any at all!

As someone else pointed out, the
confusion disappears when we consider
the basic definitions of capacitors and
inductors (which do not include AC or
DC) rather than "capacitors pass AC but
not DC".


Chuck
 
V

vorange

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

could you take a look at the first animation on this page (below). Is
that what happens when (steady state) DC encounters a capacitor for
the first time. Does the capacitor pass a small "blip" of a charge
INITIALLY on startup and then block all further DC current.

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/html/Page03.html

If so then my mental model is right. I liken it to blowing air out of
my lungs (in one breath) onto a paper fan. The fan turns at first (a
blip) however I eventually run out of air in my lungs to blow out
(just like the opposite plate of the cap runs out of free electrons to
push away). And that's why the load (the paper fan) stops turning.

But there is that initial blip is there not? If so one should be
careful when using caps.... what if the input pin of a microcontroller
registers that 'blip' as a HIGH input signal and does something in
response to it!? Would it be wise to place a resistor ahead of the
cap if its going into some low impedance input pin of some digital/
logic chip?

Thanks to all for your help.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
vorange said:
Hi,

could you take a look at the first animation on this page (below). Is
that what happens when (steady state) DC encounters a capacitor for
the first time. Does the capacitor pass a small "blip" of a charge
INITIALLY on startup and then block all further DC current.

Yep. Once the voltage stops changing, the current fades
toward zero.
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/html/Page03.html

If so then my mental model is right. I liken it to blowing air out of
my lungs (in one breath) onto a paper fan. The fan turns at first (a
blip) however I eventually run out of air in my lungs to blow out
(just like the opposite plate of the cap runs out of free electrons to
push away). And that's why the load (the paper fan) stops turning.

But there is that initial blip is there not?

Yes, there is. And if you look further down, it shows that
you can extract the reverse of that blip by connecting a
load across the capacitor.
If so one should be
careful when using caps.... what if the input pin of a microcontroller
registers that 'blip' as a HIGH input signal and does something in
response to it!? Would it be wise to place a resistor ahead of the
cap if its going into some low impedance input pin of some digital/
logic chip?

The main capacitor you have to worry about is your body. If
you walk across a rug, you may mechanically charge up your
body capacitance and when you touch the processor, you can
dump that charge into a pin. It can be a large enough pulse
to damage the device.
 
A

Anonymous.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Grise said:
Ick! Who wants to be the second cusomer to rent a particular pint?

A pseudo-science TV programme over here in Britland suggested
that statistically in every glass of water that you drink is at least
one molecule that was urinated by Isaac Newton!
 
C

Chuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Popelish wrote:

SNIP
The main capacitor you have to worry about is your body. If you walk
across a rug, you may mechanically charge up your body capacitance and
when you touch the processor, you can dump that charge into a pin. It
can be a large enough pulse to damage the device.

Well, the body is a capacitor in the
sense that distributed somewhere in the
universe is the "other plate" containing
the opposite charge. The resulting
electric field created by that capacitor
is usually not strong enough to overcome
the repulsive effects of the charges on
the body when the body comes into
contact with another object.

The problem with describing the body as
a capacitor is that one might then
imagine that touching one plate of a
"conventional capacitor" will discharge it.

Pedagogically, it is probably better to
describe the body as a charged object,
which is not the way we normally
describe a capacitor.

Chuck
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

could you take a look at the first animation on this page (below). Is
that what happens when (steady state) DC encounters a capacitor for
the first time. Does the capacitor pass a small "blip" of a charge
INITIALLY on startup and then block all further DC current.

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/html/Page03.html

If so then my mental model is right. I liken it to blowing air out of
my lungs (in one breath) onto a paper fan.

Think of it more like a chamber with a rubber diaphragm stretched
across the middle:

----------------------
| / |
| \ |
| / |
------- \ -------
------- / -------
| \ |
| / |
| \ |
----------------------

When you blow in the left, at first the diaphragm moves to the right,
and displaces the air on its right. Eventually, the diaphragm "bottoms
out", and the flow stops (or, you're blowing as hard as you can, even
though the diaphragm is only part-way, but the back-pressure stops you).
When you release the pressure, it blows the air back in your face. That's
like the cap discharging, except that for the charge to flow like the air
does here, you need wires and a complete circuit. :)

That's the flaw I see in the fluid models of electricity - the fluid
needs to be in a pipe. If you break the pipe, all the fluid spills out.
If you break a wire, the flow stops. So they're kind of opposites in
that respect, but otherwise it seems to work well.

Hope This Helps!
Rich
 
A

Anonymous.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Grise said:
That's the flaw I see in the fluid models of electricity - the fluid
needs to be in a pipe. If you break the pipe, all the fluid spills out.
If you break a wire, the flow stops. So they're kind of opposites in
that respect, but otherwise it seems to work well.

Actually it's not so much a fluid, more a case of blue smoke.

When the circuit goes wrong, something breaks and you see
the blue smoke all over the place.
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
1st question : Till now, I believed that capacitors only let AC
signals through while blocking DC. But then, I saw a schematic whee
they put a capacitor on the output line of an opamp. The signal into
the opamp was a square wave signal (which I imagine is DC and not
AC). How then does the output of the opamp (presumably DC as well)
pass through the capacitor? This has confused the hell out of me.
Is there something I'm missing here?

2nd question : Is it fair to say that if a signal goes from say +5 to
-5 volts and then back to +5...etc that is is an AC signal because its
reversing its direction. But if it goes from +10 to 0 volts and then
back to +10 that it is a DC signal because its not reversing
direction?

I'm confused :(

It's actually a little more complicated. it helps if you understand a
little calculus. The capacitor passes the derivative of the signal,
i.e. the rate of change. So, with DC, there is no change, there is no
current throughput. With your square wave, the signal changes where it
rises and falls, so at those points you will get spikes through, on
the flat parts, nothing, i.e. a spike waveform plus and minus around a
baseline of zero. The reason "capacitors pass AC" is that AC as people
generally think of it is made of sine waves, and the derivative of a
sine wave turns out to be the same sine wave, just shifted a bit in
time.
 
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