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Cars: It's nice to know electronics!

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Bill

Jan 1, 1970
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I'm sure glad I am a "mechanical type" and know electricity/electronics!

Lately I've had a lot of repair work to do with my car and a new/used truck
I purchased.

More and more vehicles are more electronic than electrical, but no problem
if you know how these things work.

(Then many consumer products I purchase lately do not work out of the box.
They need to be repaired or modified to work properly. I guess quality
control is a thing of the past now? Anyway no problem for me! I just
redesign the thing so it works.)

As to the vehicles, I've been poking around a few automotive forums lately
and it is quite interesting to say the least! Go visit some of these and
look at the electrical questions/answers!

The very newest vehicles now have data communications between various
components including the radio. Or have electronic audible warning sounds
connected to the car speakers via some sort of interface. And some of this
stuff is quite important that it work, so self testing is built in. No
factory radio on the data bus and the car will not start!

In the past people have replaced their factory stereos with an after market
stereo with no problem. Now they do this and mess up the works!

Or they go and change the tire sizes on trucks without taking into account
that the speed of each tire feeds into a computer. Then they have trouble!

Or they add electronic gizmos to a wire - any wire which works, then have
problems with fuses blowing. No attempt to determine the amperage capacity
of the circuit, how much amperage is being drawn by existing components, and
how much amperage the new gizmo will draw.

To top it all off, automotive stores are still in the 60's with the
multimeters they sell. They only have a 10 amp capacity. Yet vehicles
commonly have 15, 20, and 30 amp circuits these days! So how is any consumer
supposed to be able to measure these circuits using the test equipment
available to them via their auto parts store?
 
F

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor

Jan 1, 1970
0
Or they go and change the tire sizes on trucks without taking into account
that the speed of each tire feeds into a computer. Then they have trouble!


It was no different when it fed into a gear, and pushed an analog
speedometer display. All it changes is the calibrated accuracy of the
readout device. Since the DOT only requires a + or - 3 MPH accuracy, it
wont cause too much error depending on the size of the change, which
today could be huge.

Modern speedometers do not monitor wheel rotation. Many actually use
ultra-sonic sonar pointed at the road.
 
F

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor

Jan 1, 1970
0
To top it all off, automotive stores are still in the 60's with the
multimeters they sell. They only have a 10 amp capacity. Yet vehicles
commonly have 15, 20, and 30 amp circuits these days! So how is any consumer
supposed to be able to measure these circuits using the test equipment
available to them via their auto parts store?
Try harbor freight or ebay or Fry's. Hell even Radio Shack beats the piss
out of the cheap Chinese CRAP they have in parts stores!

Even the cheap Chinese stuff that Harbor Frieght sells at least fucking
works.
 
A

Adrian C

Jan 1, 1970
0
FunkyPunk said:
Total bullshit.

Actually, that does happen if an aftermarket replacement radio has
wiring on an ISO connector that mistakenly shorts out a contact
previously reserved by the car manufacturer and used on the OEM factory
radio for CAN Bus.
 
T

Tomi Holger Engdahl

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
Or they add electronic gizmos to a wire - any wire which works, then have
problems with fuses blowing. No attempt to determine the amperage capacity
of the circuit, how much amperage is being drawn by existing components, and
how much amperage the new gizmo will draw.

To top it all off, automotive stores are still in the 60's with the
multimeters they sell. They only have a 10 amp capacity. Yet vehicles
commonly have 15, 20, and 30 amp circuits these days! So how is any consumer
supposed to be able to measure these circuits using the test equipment
available to them via their auto parts store?

At least in Finland you can find DC capable clamp type multimeters
on several auto parts stores. Those can typically measure
DC currents up to 200-300A at 100 mA resolution. So there are
measuring instruments that suit for those measurements available.
By the way those clamp multimeters are very nice to have tools
when workign with car electronics: You can measure the current from
practically any wire you can access and you don't need to
disconnect anything to get the reading (does not disturb
the car electronics in any way).

Here are some links to some reasonably priced clamp multimeters
that can measure DC:

Uni-t UT203 Digital Clamp Multimeter (AC/DC 600V 400A Max)
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15220~r.85273703

PIHTIAMPEERIMITTARI AC/DC
http://www.biltema.fi/osteri/osteri...index_kauppa.htm&linkki=15281.htm&tuote=15281
 
A

Alun

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
I'm sure glad I am a "mechanical type" and know electricity/electronics!

Lately I've had a lot of repair work to do with my car and a new/used
truck I purchased.

More and more vehicles are more electronic than electrical, but no problem
if you know how these things work.

This raises an interesting discussion.

It used to be that every Sunday morning would see the men of the
neighbourhood
tinkering under their car bonnets.

The advent of the Engine Management Unit has removed the need for all that,
because if the battery is good and there's fuel, the car will start first
time, every
time, even in the coldest and wettest weather.

Thus, in the words of, "1066 And All That", the EMU is A Good Thing.

Another "Good Thing" might be the ABS, the Anti-Lock Braking System, but the
jury is out on that because the number of times that you might need it is
small.

The rest of the electronics? Candy Floss fluff.

To be reading this at all suggests that you are in possession of a computer
whose capability exceeds that by several orders of magnitude of the
computers
of only 10 years old.

What might we do with these computers?

Well, it seems that we have the processing and displaying power to diagnose
any electronic faults that might come up on the over-provided electronics
in cars. The only connection lacking is to the CAN bus. We have oodles of
others
interfaces, Centronics, Keyboard, USB, Firewire, DVI, so the provision
of one more interface isn't going to be daunting.

Now there _ARE_ boxes on the market that will do the job for you, but
how about if we gang together and provide an open-source solution?

This will resolve the problem of not knowing the impact of obscure
electronic
alarms, a situation that would not have arisen in the days of the
Sunday-morning
tinkering days.

Danger of tampering with car electronics? Even one of the leading players in
the
field, Omitec of Devizes UK does not have data agreements with all car
manufacturers, and gets its information by poking about under the bonnet
with the collusion of a second-hand car dealer in Bristol, UK!
 
F

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor

Jan 1, 1970
0
The advent of the Engine Management Unit has removed the need for all that,
because if the battery is good and there's fuel, the car will start first
time, every
time, even in the coldest and wettest weather.

Thus, in the words of, "1066 And All That", the EMU is A Good Thing.


Bullshit. What makes a car start up right away in modern engines is
the absence of a carburetor. Fuel injected engines start up ALL the time.

That is true when the nearest computer is miles away as well.
 
B

Bill

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have actually been thinking abt buying a ScanGuage

http://www.scangauge.com/

I have 2000 Mazda Protege and was thinking it may
actually pay back in that it could give me real time
gas mileage info

Advice?

Oh yes, do get a scan tool. Be sure it works with your vehicle, but all
should be "OBD II" after 1996.

Then get all the factory service manuals. (For a GM I have, it is a 4 book
set. One book is a large wiring diagram schematics book and another is just
on the computer and diagnostic codes. The 3rd is general maintenance and the
4th is detailed rebuilding of individual things like the engine or
alternator.)

I've been sidetracked a bit by all this and am having tons of fun learning
all about how the electronics in my car works.

It is sort of like in the old days playing with electronics or the first
computers or playing with phones.

Anyway the important books (for the fun stuff) are the wiring schematics and
the computer book. :)
 
Bill said:
Oh yes, do get a scan tool. Be sure it works with your vehicle, but all
should be "OBD II" after 1996.

Ok but do you actually think it could PAYBACK itself if
used to monitor real time gas mileage and thereby tweak
driving style to get best efficiency?
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ok but do you actually think it could PAYBACK itself if
used to monitor real time gas mileage and thereby tweak
driving style to get best efficiency?


Better to merely learn proper, efficient driving habits, like keeping
your foot out of it, and accelerate S L O W L Y. Coast toward stop
lights and signs, and coast down declines.

Watching a real time readout doesn't really provide the right info in
the right way for you to adjust your habits.

The best resource is basic common sense regarding inertia. Questions
as those you have posed, however, points toward the common sense quotient
being rather low.
 
A

Alun

Jan 1, 1970
0
Archimedes' Lever said:
Watching a real time readout doesn't really provide the right info in
the right way for you to adjust your habits.

That's very true. Had a Peugeot 307 estate that informed
me I was doing 9999 MPG when coasting to a stop!

Most useful.
 
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