need someone to build a test unit

[[email protected]]

I should have stated the needed voltage should fall between 500 and
2500 volts. There was no point in my trying to provide too many
details as this site is full of people who do not read but have an
answer none the less. Should anyone seriously consider my request I
will communicate directly with that person. thanks

 

[John Larkin]

I should have stated the needed voltage should fall between 500 and
2500 volts. There was no point in my trying to provide too many
details as this site is full of people who do not read but have an
answer none the less. Should anyone seriously consider my request I
will communicate directly with that person. thanks

You might consider

a. Taking a freshman physics course and

b. Bottom posting.


John

 

[John Larkin]

I don't know what the "x-quanta" is, but Milliken did this experiment
about a century ago and won the nobel prize. He called the "x-quanta"
the electron, BTW. The "antenna" that you seek was a little drop of
oil.

The scientific demo companies will sell you a complete
high-school-or-introductory-college-physics type demo unit (generally
called the "Milliken oil drop experiment") that does this.

I keep wondering if there is any practical, room-temperature way to
demonstrate charge quantization with available electronic parts.

1 electron into 1 pF is 1.6e-7 volts, kinda small. Would any sort of
math tease out the steps of a cmos gate discharging? Could something
be done with an eprom, where not many trapped electrons make the
difference between a 1 and a 0?

John

 

[John Fields]

I should have stated the needed voltage should fall between 500 and
2500 volts.

---
How do you know that?
---

There was no point in my trying to provide too many
details as this site is full of people who do not read but have an
answer none the less.

---
If you refuse to provide details and then chide the people on this
group for not reading, whose fault is that? Yours, obviously. As
far as having answers goes, many of us do but when someone with an
attitude like yours posts, why should we bother helping you?
---

 

[[email protected]]

I should have stated the needed voltage should fall between 500 and
2500 volts. There was no point in my trying to provide too many
details as this site is full of people who do not read but have an
answer none the less. Should anyone seriously consider my request I
will communicate directly with that person. thanks

Then the three-foot antenna makes even less sense. Tell us - or me (my
e-mail address is real) - what you are actually trying to do, and
somebody may be able to come up with a sensible proposition.

At the moment you have merely provided enough detail to give the
imporession that you don't know much about what you want.

 

[Sjouke Burry]

I keep wondering if there is any practical, room-temperature way to
demonstrate charge quantization with available electronic parts.

1 electron into 1 pF is 1.6e-7 volts, kinda small. Would any sort of
math tease out the steps of a cmos gate discharging? Could something
be done with an eprom, where not many trapped electrons make the
difference between a 1 and a 0?

John

Just buy an old photomultiplier,connect it to a
sensitive (audio) amplifier, cover it up .
We did it with several layers of special black cloth.
Switch on, and you get separate pops for each leaking
photon and emitted electron. Lift a corner of the
covering slightly, and the photomultiplier starts
emitting a staccato of plops.
One plop for each electron leaving the photosensitive
layer.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

You might consider

a. Taking a freshman physics course and

b. Bottom posting.

And

c. Being less of a complete asshole

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Then the three-foot antenna makes even less sense. Tell us - or me (my
e-mail address is real) - what you are actually trying to do, and
somebody may be able to come up with a sensible proposition.

At the moment you have merely provided enough detail to give the
imporession that you don't know much about what you want.

Perhaps he imagines a satellite antenna will grow out of his ass - like
Cartman on South Park.

 

[Sjouke Burry]

what if you have a 12 stage photomultiplier like i do ?

That is just wat you need in the above experiment.

 

[John Larkin]

Just buy an old photomultiplier,connect it to a
sensitive (audio) amplifier, cover it up .
We did it with several layers of special black cloth.
Switch on, and you get separate pops for each leaking
photon and emitted electron. Lift a corner of the
covering slightly, and the photomultiplier starts
emitting a staccato of plops.
One plop for each electron leaving the photosensitive
layer.

OK, but it's really demoing the quantization of photons, sort of, and
it doesn't quantify the charge at all, or not unless you estimate the
dynode gains. I was thinking of actually measuring single electrons.

If you observe the output of a high-gain cmos opamp connected to a
capacitor (which could be its own internals) there will be a step for
every electron of leakage, but it will be way below the noise floor.
Since the electron leakage is random and the noise is random, I can't
think of an obvious way to signal-average the output and reveal the
steps.

If the electron leakage were triggerable, one could measure the signal
before and after each shot, and dig the steps out of the noise. Maybe
you could inject a shot of charge capacitively, statistically roughly
one or two electron's worth, and average out the resulting signal
change, and show that it's quantized into steps.

An eprom is still interesting, since the geometry and charge are so
small.

John

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Read the text, this is not an experiment, as I said it is a piece of
test equipment

Then call Agilent or Tektronix and get it off the shelf.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Tim Wescott]

You assume too much. Foget what you think I might be using this for
and read the text.

I think most of us did. It sounds like a mishmash of poorly understood
high school physics, really bad B-movie script writing, and the babble
that you hear from panhandlers who have been off their meds for years.

As Bill Sloman suggested, perhaps you need to step back a few paces and
tell us what you're _really_ trying to do -- if it's physically
realizable, maybe someone will help.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

 

[Jamie]

Just buy an old photomultiplier,connect it to a
sensitive (audio) amplifier, cover it up .
We did it with several layers of special black cloth.
Switch on, and you get separate pops for each leaking
photon and emitted electron. Lift a corner of the
covering slightly, and the photomultiplier starts
emitting a staccato of plops.
One plop for each electron leaving the photosensitive
layer.

what if you have a 12 stage photomultiplier like i do ?

 

[Robert Latest]

On 22 Oct 2006 09:23:43 -0700,

You assume too much. Foget what you think I might be using this for
and read the text.

We're not interested in what you might be using this for, and your
text is both boring and non-descriptive. But your post has brought up
a couple of interesting ideas, which we prefer to discuss instead.
That's how Usenet (of which you, being a "googlegroups" poster,
probably have never heard) works.

robert

 

[[email protected]]

I have never been on one of these sites and don't have a clue what
bottom posting is. How is the freshman physics course going to benefit
me?

 

[John Larkin]

I have never been on one of these sites and don't have a clue what
bottom posting is. How is the freshman physics course going to benefit
me?

Bottom posting is what I'm doing, putting a response *after* a
question. That is the standard usenet convention.

And the physics would help you understand things like charge, current,
and physical reality, and learn some terminology. Well, maybe sophmore
physics.

Do you know the charge on an electron? Do you know about electrical
noise? Any idea of the magnitude of voltage that will be induced, by
ambient RF, into a free-space antenna of your suggested dimensions?
Ideas like yours can be tested quantitatively so see if they have a
remote chance of working; if it's demonstrably hopeless, there's no
reason to start building stuff.

John

 

[[email protected]]

Because that is one of the parameters of the design.

---
If you refuse to provide details and then chide the people on this
group for not reading, whose fault is that? Yours, obviously. As
far as having answers goes, many of us do but when someone with an
attitude like yours posts, why should we bother helping you?
--

I did not refuse to provide details and would have if someone had
asked. I tried to make the posting short and list enough information
for someone to understand what I wanted if not what I intended to use
the unit for. I expected that if it was not sufficient someone would
ask for more details. No, they take it apart and say everything that
it is or isn't and call me an asshole with an attitude. I will be the
first to say I am not familiar with how this posting system works and I
am sorry that I am viewed as having an attitude but my name is Larry,
not asshole.My knowledge is very limited in some areas of physics but I am well
versed in the physics relative to the use and parameters of this unit.

 

[Tim Shoppa]

If you observe the output of a high-gain cmos opamp connected to a
capacitor (which could be its own internals) there will be a step for
every electron of leakage, but it will be way below the noise floor.
Since the electron leakage is random and the noise is random, I can't
think of an obvious way to signal-average the output and reveal the
steps.

Well, oil drops in the Milliken oil drop experiment will randomly
gain/lose electrons during the course of the experiment. As well as
having some doohickey which will help induce the charge change.

But I have a hard time seeing how with solid-state stuff you measure
the electron and not some bulk property of the semiconductor more
closely associated with holes (which typically have effective masses
nothing like an electron...)

I never understood solid-state physics!

Tim.

 

[John Larkin]

My knowledge is very limited in some areas of physics but I am well
versed in the physics relative to the use and parameters of this unit.

OK, what's it for? What's it supposed to do? How will the data be
delivered?

It's all too common here for newcomers to ask for impossible things to
be done, and then have it turn out that they haven't even phrased
their problem reasonably, or described what they really are trying to
accomplish. Top posting, being secretive about actual intent, and
using terms like x-quanta sets off alarms.

It seems to me that, from the description you've provided, it can't be
done.

John

 

[[email protected]]

I did not refuse to provide details and would have if someone had
asked. I tried to make the posting short and list enough information
for someone to understand what I wanted if not what I intended to use
the unit for. I expected that if it was not sufficient someone would
ask for more details. No, they take it apart and say everything that
it is or isn't and call me an asshole with an attitude. I will be the
first to say I am not familiar with how this posting system works and I
am sorry that I am viewed as having an attitude but my name is Larry,
not asshole.

Larry:

You have walked into a very unfriendly and highly ego filled group.
Not
everyone here would treat you so poorly. I find it interesting that
people
take more time to type snappy replies to show how smart they are than
actually politely answering a question. They seem to feel that your
posting,
rather than ignoring it, is intruding upon their space. I apologize
to you
for the treatment you have received here. If it is any comfort, you
are
certainly not the first to be treated so poorly, and unfortunately, not
the last.

Bit farmer