Nick update 2#

[Robert L Bass]

this asshole who was helping me was a full fledged electrical contractor so
not only him but his crew of 8 fucked me as well...

Sounds like you accidentally hired a counter clerk from ASA. :^)

All kidding aside, Nick, don't let the moron get you down. Just tell him to
get lost, hire someone else and concentrate on getting well. If you let these
fools stress you out you'll slow your own recovery which is far more important
than the job. Let the superintendant from the school know you hired them
because you're sick but that you'll do what it takes to make it right and
leave it at that. If he's a decent human being he'll try to work with you.
If he's not you don't want his job anyway.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[JoeRaisin]

this asshole who was helping me was a full fledged electrical
contractor so not only him but his crew of 8 fucked me as well
I came on job at school that need a fire alarm installed so it could be
opened in 3 days after a treatment one day to find
no work done by his guys bill no where in site and 3 of them involved in a
fist fight the school superintendent called them to his office and fired
them on spot for fucking things up talk about embarrasing.
and this asshole now expeccts me to bail him out again

We are dealing with much the same thing right now with a large
commercial building - voice evac required by the AHJ.

We didn't have the man power to get the wires run in the time frame
required by the sub (which, of course turned out to be total BS - there
was plenty of time) so we subcontracted the wire runs to the Speakers
and strobes and the installation those devices out to an electrical
company. When our guy went out to install the panels (accompanied by
two of their guys who were to install the speaker/strobes) he found
wires taped to the sprinkler pipes, run through the bolt holes of the
steel beams and, after finally getting everything installed and powered
up, spent an entire day with these two jokers (who didn't even have
meters with them) running down ground faults.

My first exposure to this job was on Monday this week, when I was asked
to meet the AHJ at 1pm for our final inspection. I walk in to find that
the HVAC units were set right in front of our fire panel (Vista 32FB)
with two inch copper pipes running out of the building directly below it
thus preventing the required access. So our first gig on the inspection
was that we had to moved our panel to the other side of the room (high
ceilings obscured by pipes and ductwork) - I got out of there about 8pm
thanks to two of our guys who swung by to help me out.

The sub was acting as his own GC and had a guy on staff who is an
electrical contractor. This guy was totally dumbfounded when I
explained that Fire panels need the same access as an electrical panel -
even if it is "only low voltage."

In my experience, electricians don't seem to have any respect or even
concern for low voltage stuff. In houses where they are the ones
running phone, tv and Data lines, those wire runs are ridiculous even
while the romex has been run neat and professionally.

Side note - the real fun on this job is the sub, who is one of those
guys who jumps up and down yelling, screaming and threatening at the
first sign of trouble. He kept coming back to inform me that my company
was all f***ed up, I was all f***ed up, he should kick my ass and he
could have ADT here in half an hour (made me wish I owned the company, I
would have let him use my phone to call them). He already had ADT take
over the camera system since we won't do audible - something the
salesman neglected to tell him.

It amuses me when guys like this try to intimidate me. I stand 6'1",
weigh 235lbs (36 inch waist - some fat but not too much), study
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and taught hand-to-hand combat in the Marines - I'm
not easily intimidated...

Oh yeah, and I stayed at that job site because it was so important that
the panel be up and running (due to insurance or some such BS) before I
left - only to find out at 8 pm the electrician wouldn't be available to
run power to our new panel location until the next afternoon. I had
told him we needed power as soon as I knew we had to move the panel but
he kept 'forgetting' to call - somehow that was my fault too...

AHJ came back out on Wednesday to reinspect and decided he wasn't happy
with several of the speaker/strobe locations so I was out there for
about 10 1/2 hours on Friday. Its a bowling alley and I had to get
above the lanes which are all done so all ladder and/or lift placement
had to be done very carefully - plus all the work had to be done
carefully since I couldn't take a chance of dropping anything that might
ding the lane. Of course the lanes were nothing compared to getting up
above the pinsetters...

It would have been nice if the AHJ would have looked at everything the
first day but as soon as he saw the panel had to be moved, he stopped.

wait... who were we bitching about???

 

[Robert L Bass]

In my experience, electricians don't seem to have any respect or even
concern for low voltage stuff...

If they've been reading some of the posts from a few "professional" alarm
installers here, that could account for the lack of respect.

In houses where they are the ones running phone, tv and Data lines, those
wire runs are ridiculous even while the romex has been run neat and
professionally...

Like alarm installers, some electricians care about their work. Others don't.

It amuses me when guys like this try to intimidate me. I stand 6'1", weigh
235lbs (36 inch waist - some fat but not too much), study Brazilian
Jiu-Jitsu and taught hand-to-hand combat in the Marines - I'm not easily
intimidated...

Do you play berimbau?

AHJ came back out on Wednesday to reinspect and decided he wasn't happy with
several of the speaker/strobe locations so I was out there for about 10 1/2
hours on Friday...

Didn't you submit plans showing locations with the permit application?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[JoeRaisin]

If they've been reading some of the posts from a few "professional"
alarm installers here, that could account for the lack of respect.

Animosity back and forth in this news group does not negate the fact
that Low voltage appliances, especially when used in a life-safety
application, demands the same respect to its codes as does standard
electrical.

Like alarm installers, some electricians care about their work. Others
don't.

But I'm talking about the same guy doing his 110 stuff carefully and
professionally but slopping the low voltage around like spiderwebs.

Do you play berimbau?

I had to look that one up. You're talking about Capoeira. I'm talking
about the jiu-jitsu made famous by the Gracie family and their success
in the Ultimate Fighting realm.

Didn't you submit plans showing locations with the permit application?

Yes and plan review was passed. The ductwork wasn't in when the devices
were hung by the subcontractor or when the system brought up, tested,
fixed and retested by our guy. (see again my comment about why we had to
be in such a blankety blank hurry to get our system up and running when
the the darned mechanicals weren't even in yet) turns out the views of
several devices were obscured by the ducts (they have left much of the
building with open ceilings).

Hell, if they had installed the HVAC units 10 inches farther from the
wall and run the lines to the AC compressors out the building a foot to
the right the access issue never would have come up. There was plenty
of room but we weren't there when the heating and cooling guys were
there so there was nobody looking out for us.

The first day our guy was out there he came back to the office making
train whistle sounds saying that the train was coming and we needed to
make sure our car was off the tracks... but nobody ever listens to mere
technicians - the salesman assured everyone things were just fine.

 

[Robert L Bass]

Animosity back and forth in this news group does not negate the fact that
Low voltage appliances, especially when used in a life-safety application,
demands the same respect to its codes as does standard electrical.
Agreed.


But I'm talking about the same guy doing his 110 stuff carefully and
professionally but slopping the low voltage around like spiderwebs.

In that case I wouldn't hire him for anything at all. The problem is a lack
of integrity.

I had to look that one up. You're talking about Capoeira. I'm talking
about the jiu-jitsu made famous by the Gracie family and their success in
the Ultimate Fighting realm.

If they were practicing "Brazilian Jiu-Jitso" it was Capoeira, the martial art
originally developed by African slaves in Brazil. They were not allowed to do
martial arts so they modified the traditional African techniques into the
dance-like movements of Capoeira. Most of the top Brazilian Capoeiristas come
from Salvador, Bahia. That's where my second home is. You'd probably enjoy
watching or even participating. Everywhere you go around Salvador there are
demonstrations and contests going on, especially in the tourist areas.

Yes and plan review was passed. The ductwork wasn't in when the devices
were hung by the subcontractor or when the system brought up, tested, fixed
and retested by our guy. (see again my comment about why we had to be in
such a blankety blank hurry to get our system up and running when the the
darned mechanicals weren't even in yet) turns out the views of

several devices were obscured by the ducts (they have left much of the
building with open ceilings).

Ah, now I understand. They pushed you to do the work out of order. Idiots!
Bill them for the extra time. It's certainly over and above what you
contracted for and it's definitely their fault.

Hell, if they had installed the HVAC units 10 inches farther from the wall
and run the lines to the AC compressors out the building a foot to the right
the access issue never would have come up. There was plenty of room but we
weren't there when the heating and cooling guys were there so there was
nobody looking out for us.

HVAC people *never* adjust their stuff for alarm people. They seem to
consider it their God-given duty to cut alarm wires and then hide the cuts
behind the duct.

The first day our guy was out there he came back to the office making train
whistle sounds saying that the train was coming and we needed to make sure
our car was off the tracks... but nobody ever listens to mere technicians -
the salesman assured everyone things were just fine.

Your salesman? May I assume you delivered a steel-toed boot to the
appropriate orifice? :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[JoeRaisin]

In that case I wouldn't hire him for anything at all. The problem is a
lack of integrity.


If they were practicing "Brazilian Jiu-Jitso" it was Capoeira, the
martial art originally developed by African slaves in Brazil. They were
not allowed to do martial arts so they modified the traditional African
techniques into the dance-like movements of Capoeira. Most of the top
Brazilian Capoeiristas come from Salvador, Bahia. That's where my
second home is. You'd probably enjoy watching or even participating.
Everywhere you go around Salvador there are demonstrations and contests
going on, especially in the tourist areas.

Two separate disciplines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira

BJJ is a very recent discipline.

I will admit that Capoeira looks interesting but if I do start a new
study it will be Muay Thai - that shit is deadly. I learned a little as
my Brazilian jiu-jitsu instructor was big into mixed martial arts.

several devices were obscured by the ducts (they have left much of the
building with open ceilings).

Ah, now I understand. They pushed you to do the work out of order.
Idiots! Bill them for the extra time. It's certainly over and above
what you contracted for and it's definitely their fault.

We are going to bill either the building owner or the sub contractor.
All I know is that I have been told to make copious notes of what I've
done and how long each step took.

HVAC people *never* adjust their stuff for alarm people. They seem to
consider it their God-given duty to cut alarm wires and then hide the
cuts behind the duct.

Well, in their defense nobody told them about the three foot clearance
(back to my main point) and truth be told, moving my panel was a lot
easier than moving an HVAC unit the size of our service vans.

I have run into dickhead heating and cooling guys but they are rare.
Most of them are just trying to put in a days work and my wires are way
easier to maneuver than their ducts. Usually, if there is a conflict,
either they or the builder will give us a call.

Your salesman? May I assume you delivered a steel-toed boot to the
appropriate orifice? :^)

No no no - you have your priorities all wrong. Salesmen make money for
the company. Tech's are overhead. If anyone gets a boot up whatever
orifice you refer to it would be the tech for making the salesman look
bad...

 

[Robert L Bass]

Two separate disciplines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira

BJJ is a very recent discipline.

Very interesting. I was not aware of this before. I've heard a number of
people (Americans, not Brasilians) refer to Capoeira as "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu"
so I thought the two were one and the same. Thanks for setting me straight.

I will admit that Capoeira looks interesting but if I do start a new study
it will be Muay Thai - that shit is deadly. I learned a little as my
Brazilian jiu-jitsu instructor was big into mixed martial arts.

I've never watched Muay Thai. What's it like?

We are going to bill either the building owner or the sub contractor. All I
know is that I have been told to make copious notes of what I've done and
how long each step took.

Exactly. Be sure to write not only the date of each item but note the day in
which the notes were recorded. It makes your evidence more convincing.

Well, in their defense nobody told them about the three foot clearance (back
to my main point) and truth be told, moving my panel was a lot easier than
moving an HVAC unit the size of our service vans.

True. With us a wire can usually be moved easily. Moving a duct or part of a
duct not only makes for more work. It affects the airflow if it requires
additional bends. It really sounds like the GC was at fault more than anyone
else.

No no no - you have your priorities all wrong. Salesmen make money for the
company. Tech's are overhead. If anyone gets a boot up whatever orifice
you refer to it would be the tech for making the salesman look bad...

Heh, heh, heh. :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

I've never watched Muay Thai. What's it like?

Would you like a personal demonstration???

 

[JoeRaisin]

Would you like a personal demonstration???

LOL - I can't see that being very helpful. After about three seconds,
even if the person is still conscious, most wouldn't be very aware of
what was being demonstrated. All they would really know is that it hurts...

It isn't real pretty to watch unless you know what's going on. In Muay
Thai you strike with not just your hands and feet but train to
incorporate elbows, knees and shins as well. It's a good match for
Jiu-jitsu since knee and elbow strikes work very well in close quarters.

Marine hand to hand combat teaches (among other things) that whenever
possible, once you have made contact with an opponent you don't let go
until one of you is dead (hopefully the other guy). That way the
training works in any environment, whether you can see or not.

Jiu-jitsu is all about taking the fight to the ground and wrapping up
your opponent. Perfect for snapping joints, ripping out eyeballs or
breaking a neck - but there's no reason you shouldn't take out a few
ribs with a knee or use your elbow to cave in a temple while you're down
there.

The other thing about Muay Thai I like is that with long arms and long
legs my hands and feet have a long way to go when throwing a strike.
Knees and Elbows don't have to travel as far and make for a quicker
strike.

I liken my reaction time to that of a tree sloth so striking disciplines
such as boxing or tae-kwon-do have never appealed to me...

What would be REALLY cool to learn would be Krav Maga but instructors
are hard to find - or afford.

 

[Frank Olson]

What would be REALLY cool to learn would be Krav Maga but instructors
are hard to find - or afford.

I guess you can find pretty well anything in Vancouver.

http://www.kravmagabc.com/index.html

 

[JoeRaisin]

I guess you can find pretty well anything in Vancouver.

http://www.kravmagabc.com/index.html

Sweet... you Canadians get everything...

 

[Robert L Bass]

Olson lied:

Now Olson will tell us he's a martial arts expers as well as an airline pilot,
insurance inspector, alarm technician, etc., etc., etc.... Give it a rest,
Olson. Nobody believes your bullshit.

I liken my reaction time...

I prefer to simply outwit an opponent. Since no one even tries to bother me
outside this newsgroup it's easy to win. The "competition" is unarmed.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

Now Olson will tell us he's a martial arts expers

Not sn "expert". Just a student.

as well as an airline
pilot,

Actually, I have a private pilot's license these days. I've never flown
for an airline.

insurance inspector,

Try "insurance adjuster".

alarm technician,
Check.


Give
it a rest, Olson. Nobody believes your bullshit.

I don't think people have a problem believing me. They have a problem
believing you though. In all the years I've been participating in this
newsgroup you have yet to been able to substantiate any of your asinine
assertions. You lie like a rug, Bass.

I prefer to simply outwit an opponent.

And when all else fails, threaten them with a gun.

Since no one even tries to
bother me outside this newsgroup it's easy to win. The "competition" is
unarmed.

Check. The "competition" doesn't use lies, innuendo, and baseless
accusations. You, OTOH, are a "master baiter". You're a coward as well.

 

[JoeRaisin]

Not sn "expert". Just a student.

Which discipline? Just curious...

 

[Frank Olson]

Which discipline? Just curious...

Disciplines. Kick-boxing (I've got a green belt, my son - who has way
more time and goes to more classes - just got his brown) and Kendo. And
just lately my son also "roped" me into taking Kyudo (Japanese archery).
Both of us wanted some experience with hand to hand fighting before
taking up weapons. Our kick-boxing instructor teaches some of the Krav
Maga techniques I observed on the videos in the link I posted earlier.
It's interesting how some of the disciplines "cross over".

 

[Robert L Bass]

Which discipline? Just curious...

Third grade it seems.

 

[JoeRaisin]

Disciplines. Kick-boxing (I've got a green belt, my son - who has way
more time and goes to more classes - just got his brown) and Kendo. And
just lately my son also "roped" me into taking Kyudo (Japanese archery).
Both of us wanted some experience with hand to hand fighting before
taking up weapons. Our kick-boxing instructor teaches some of the Krav
Maga techniques I observed on the videos in the link I posted earlier.
It's interesting how some of the disciplines "cross over".

Kick boxing is great but I just don't have the quick reflexes and get
hit way too much. A grappling technique makes for a good adjunct
though, even for those who are quick enough.

I had a buddy while I was in Japan who did Kendo - It's impressive to
watch. I never did try it (reference my comment on my reflexes). I am
pretty good with a knife though.

I suppose the disciplines cross over because there are only so many ways
to punch someone in the head or kick them in the jewels. IMHO, the key
is to get used to physical combat so that finding yourself in such a
situation isn't a shock, and then having developed muscle memory for
various techniques so that in the heat of battle all you have to do is
decide what you want to do and your body carries out the order on its
own. Since you're not distracted by thinking about the kick you're
launching or making sure your fingers are gripping the wrist just so,
you can be deciding what to do next or figuring out your opponents strategy.

For me, to be honest, it is about confidence. I was pretty much a
punching bag growing up. I was in the best shape I had ever been in
when I went into the Marines at 19, and while I still stood 6'1" I only
weighed between 135 and 140 pounds depending on what I had for
breakfast. During the initial strength test I couldn't do three pull
ups and barely finished the first 1 mile run. Our first time at the
confidence course I didn't even make it half way up the biggest rope
(about 30').

Three months later I weighed 180, could do 20 pull ups and made my final
three mile run in just over 20 minutes. On our last visit to the
confidence course I had to go up two ropes, one in each hand (that way
there is no way to use the legs).

Having gotten in shape and learned how to defend myself made a huge
difference in how I felt about myself and life in general. That's one
of the reasons I pushed my boys into martial arts.

When I went to the instructors course for hand to hand combat one of my
instructors used to say that it gives any argument a whole different
feel when you realize that the only reason the other person isn't dead
is because you have made the choice NOT to kill them.

I find it calming...

 

[G. Morgan]

And when all else fails, threaten them with a gun.

Ouch!

 

[Frank Olson]

Third grade it seems.

And I'd call this a "kindegarden" response, Bass. If you're trying for
"one up-man-ship", I'd say you were "shooting blanks" (which I
understand you're *also* an expert at).

 

[Frank Olson]

JoeRaisin wrote:

Having gotten in shape and learned how to defend myself made a huge
difference in how I felt about myself and life in general. That's one
of the reasons I pushed my boys into martial arts.

I can't argue with you there. I practiced Judo when I was young
(thirteen to fifteen) to help boost my confidence. In the high school I
went to guys were always getting beat up.

When I went to the instructors course for hand to hand combat one of my
instructors used to say that it gives any argument a whole different
feel when you realize that the only reason the other person isn't dead
is because you have made the choice NOT to kill them.

I hear ya. I don't know whether it wouldn't be more humane to finish
them off though. Some of the injuries we can inflict will leave a
would-be attacker permanently disabled. I don't think many would be
able to recover from a knee strike (or having their elbow joint suddenly
reversed). As for having someone gouge out an eye ball... That would
just plain suck.

I find it calming...

But only when they're disarmed, lying on the ground, writhing in agony
and you're holding their eyeballs... ;-)