Where is the bottleneck?

[Pal]

OK. This is a pure discussion starter.

Given the enormous weight of knowledge and experience represented in
this group, the answers should make interesting reading...

Relating to the most efficient, practical, or just favorite energy
generation technology that you personally know about, where is the
bottleneck? Or put another way, what plausible technological
developement that doesn't exist yet, would make your "pin up" system an
order of magnitude better?

Regards,

Pal

 

[Alan Combellack]

For me the availability of much less costly PV panels(<$1.00/peak Watt) and
better, cheaper, more reliable batteries would make getting off grid
feasible now. We need a Manhattan type project to do this methinks. I'm
sure it is feasible and we need to do it before fossil fuels become to
scarce and costly to get the thing started.
Alan C

 

[Pop]

The ability to implement Quantum Mechanics/Physics in a
generator. Second choice, affordable fuel cells.


"Pal" <"gtsubs at tpg dot com dot au"> wrote in message
: OK. This is a pure discussion starter.
:
: Given the enormous weight of knowledge and experience
represented in
: this group, the answers should make interesting reading...
:
: Relating to the most efficient, practical, or just favorite
energy
: generation technology that you personally know about, where is
the
: bottleneck? Or put another way, what plausible technological
: developement that doesn't exist yet, would make your "pin up"
system an
: order of magnitude better?
:
: Regards,
:
: Pal

 

[Mel]

Pal a écrit :

OK. This is a pure discussion starter.

Given the enormous weight of knowledge and experience represented in
this group, the answers should make interesting reading...

Relating to the most efficient, practical, or just favorite energy
generation technology that you personally know about, where is the
bottleneck? Or put another way, what plausible technological
developement that doesn't exist yet, would make your "pin up" system an
order of magnitude better?

Regards,

Pal

a collective conscience (sorry, it's not technological...)

 

[Derek Broughton]

I'll look at this from the "glass is half full side".

Energy costs are currently too cheap.

We need oil to spike to $500 a barrel.

Then PV and Wind and oil shale will all feel like they are "an order of
magnitude cheaper".

Problem solved.
And oh yes, that's exactly what the market will do if necessary.

don't steal my money for your "manhattan projects".

I agree. If oil wasn't subsidized, it wouldn't be $500/barrel but PV would
be much closer to competitive.

 

[Vaughn]

Using the
published fuel consumption of several diesel generators, an end user
could generate his own electricity at about 6 or 7 cents a KWH, using
current retail price of diesel in the calcs.

Is the above fuel only? They don't give diesel generators away for free
you know! Not to mention such insignificant little things such as installation,
maintenance, depreciation, operator labor, and cost of capital.

Vaughn

 

[Alan Combellack]

Thanks. You make a good point.
Some time ago I wondered if I could make a form of battery with which I
could pump water up to a high tank using PV when available and let it run
back down during the rest of the day. This makes economic sense at all
except under very suitable land profiles. I was quite surprised to find
that I would need something like 30000 lbs of water falling from 100 ft to
generate 1 kW. This needs a large tank and a lot of PV capacity to provide
a reserve. One could store about 1 kWh in a car battery costing less than
$100.
Conversely you could pump that 30000 lbs up 100 ft for about 15 cents
(here in Canada) from the utility given a 100% efficient pump. That amount
of energy for so little money strikes me as somewhat mind-boggling so energy
really is drastically under priced.
Simply allowing prices to rise rapidly to a "fair" value would cause
drastic societal effects for a long time but you are right in that " that's
exactly what the market will do if necessary".
I suppose the "big oil" etc companies want to keep us addicted for as long
as fossil fuel remains available so they cam maximize their profits.
I have been thinking about solar power for many years and, apart from
insulation and direct solar heating, it has always seemed nearly, but not
quite, worth doing on economic grounds.
I still think investing a lot in making PV cheaper as soon as possible is
a good, albeit not the only, solution to our upcoming problems. We really
cannot wait until the fossil fuels are gone and in any case oil etc. is too
valuable for other uses such as plastics so should be preserved as long as
possible. No matter what we do sooner or later we will have to depend on
solar power (and, perhaps, nuclear) for all of our energy needs. We should
make the transition as painless as possible.
Alan C
..

 

[Derek Broughton]

However, let's not forget how heavily solar is subsidized also....

It's not, here. Zero, zip, nada. In fact, American subsidies are keeping
_my_ costs up, because why should manufacturers sell for less than their
purchasers can get back in rebates.

 

[Derek Broughton]

That is what always happens when anything is subsidized. Why do you think
milk is so high?

Who's arguing? You're right.

 

[daestrom]

Orlando Utilities Commision has a 300MW coal plant in Orlando and twice
a week a 100 car coal train runs thru town. I looked up the price of
coal and the BTUs/lb of coal and I figure they are generating
electricity at about 3 cents a KWH,

Sounds about right...

selling it to the local big
consumers like Lockheed Martin at 4 cents a KWH, and selling to the
peons at 12 cents a KWH.

If the state you're in was like NY, your bill would be broken down into
energy charges and delivery charges. In NY, about half the cost of
residential electric is in the delivery and the other half in the energy
charges.

If you had time-of-use metering, you could pay only 4 or 5 cents a KWH in
the middle of the night for the energy. But higher prices during the day of
course.

When on a flat-rate billing without TOU, the cost per KWH has to be a blend
of the costs from cheap coal, and the more expensive sources that the
average residential user also uses. Running A/C in July uses energy from
some much more expensive sources such as NG and even diesel fuel.

The rates (with the fuel adjustment charges) are probably approved by your
state's public service commission (or some similar title). Ask them about
why you pay so much more per KWH than just the 3 cents worth of coal.

That seems like a wide spread from wholsale to
retail. Need some competition to get the retail price down. Using the
published fuel consumption of several diesel generators, an end user
could generate his own electricity at about 6 or 7 cents a KWH, using
current retail price of diesel in the calcs. I see the price of
wholesale non food grade oil from soy, canola, sunflowers etc is about
$1.50 a gal, so I cant see why the price of B100 biodiesel shouldnt be
less than petro diesel, except all the middlemen are charging what the
market will bear, so I cant make it 10x better, just 2x by using local
biodiesel generation.

Yes, if you just go by fuel costs, you can certainly can do better with such
a setup. Of course, you'll have to do your own maintenance, and pay for the
generator. So think it through carefully before 'jumping in with both
feet.'

Would you disconnect from the utility all together, or stay connected for a
backup?

daestrom

 

[Mark & Mary Ann Weiss]

I'll look at this from the "glass is half full side".

Energy costs are currently too cheap.

We need oil to spike to $500 a barrel.

Yes, but if that happened, this nation, and many others would collapse into
civil unrest. Imagine if 90 million working poor couldn't get to work every
day. The potential for a volatile situation is underscored by what we've
already seen in post-Katrina New Orleans. This kind of mayhem would spread
throughout the country as gasolene prices soared to $23/gallon. Imagine home
heating oil at $20/gallon. Millions would freeze to death or abandon the
northern states.
We already pay close to 20 cents/kWh here and it's been going up and will go
up again in May for a 36% increase the first half of this year. A lot of
people are already hurting. We use 1500kWh a month here, most of it used by
computers and musical instrument equipment, but if it were to go much
higher, we'd be back to a medievil state of existence.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
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www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com <--Now with Hi-Fi Stereo Streaming Audio!
-

 

[Pal]

Yes, but if that happened, this nation, and many others would collapse into
civil unrest. Imagine if 90 million working poor couldn't get to work every
day. The potential for a volatile situation is underscored by what we've
already seen in post-Katrina New Orleans. This kind of mayhem would spread
throughout the country as gasolene prices soared to $23/gallon. Imagine home
heating oil at $20/gallon. Millions would freeze to death or abandon the
northern states.
We already pay close to 20 cents/kWh here and it's been going up and will go
up again in May for a 36% increase the first half of this year. A lot of
people are already hurting. We use 1500kWh a month here, most of it used by
computers and musical instrument equipment, but if it were to go much
higher, we'd be back to a medievil state of existence.

I agree that realistic valuation of energy products is required to
"encourage" the general population to use energy wisely. I believe here
in Australia, our per capita energy consumption is even greater than it
is in the US, and so both our populations need a shift in mindset for
this to occur.

At the same time, I can see huge social problems in the short to medium
term if that shift had to result from a price shock. The less likely,
but more desirable option, is for groups like that represented in this
ng to become ever more visible as the flag bearers of what is possible,
and wean away enough of the "mindless" consumers, to give the
alternative energy technologies the critical mass they need to become
mainstream. Once the general population sees competition to the
traditional energy infrastructure that is proven, reliable, cost
competitive, and with enviromental benefits thrown in, then I think the
battle will be almost won.

Keep fighting the good fight...

 

[Tom Peel]

OK. This is a pure discussion starter.

Given the enormous weight of knowledge and experience represented in
this group, the answers should make interesting reading...

Relating to the most efficient, practical, or just favorite energy
generation technology that you personally know about, where is the
bottleneck? Or put another way, what plausible technological
developement that doesn't exist yet, would make your "pin up" system an
order of magnitude better?

Regards,

Pal

Solar power is the solution. The cost of existing technology is the
problem. My dream technology would synthesize hydrocarbons directly from
solar energy. Hey, did someone say "trees" ?

T.