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Who Has Used Resistors as Fuses

T

Tam/WB2TT

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Sometimes I burn too many regular fuses with prototypes.

Could I use a resistor as a temporary fuse substitute?
It's ok if the fuse bursts into flames..
Affer debugging, I'll used a proper fuse.

Has anybody sacrificed resistors like this?
If so, which resistor type makes for a good fuse?
Carbon? Thick film? Thin film? Wirewound?

I was blowing 2amp fast blow pico fuses.
D from BC

From my experience, this will only work for a gross overload. A 1/4 W
resistor might cook for a long time at 1W before anything happens. On the
other hand, put 12V across a 1/4 w 5.6 Ohm carbon resistor, and you will get
instant gratification. No smoke, no discoloration; it will instantly break
in half. Make some tests with your resistors. The Resistor Police say you
should wear goggles.

Tam
 
S

Stanislaw Flatto

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
Sometimes I burn too many regular fuses with prototypes.

Could I use a resistor as a temporary fuse substitute?
It's ok if the fuse bursts into flames..
Affer debugging, I'll used a proper fuse.

Has anybody sacrificed resistors like this?
If so, which resistor type makes for a good fuse?
Carbon? Thick film? Thin film? Wirewound?

I was blowing 2amp fast blow pico fuses.

Those are supposed to blow if a mouse sneezes within two meter radius.
D from BC

What so holy about fuses? Why resistors when in any workplace there are
various wires, copper, aluminium, steel that can be used.
And if you have a normal worktable pull out few nails, they parade as
fuses, no complains whatsoever.

Have fun

Stanislaw.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Those are supposed to blow if a mouse sneezes within two meter radius.


What so holy about fuses?

Well, they're characterized, and guaranteed to have certain
characteristics. They may use uncommon materials. They are generally
safety-agency approved so they should be less likely to start fires or
allow fires to start.
Why resistors when in any workplace there are
various wires, copper, aluminium, steel that can be used.
And if you have a normal worktable pull out few nails, they parade as
fuses, no complains whatsoever.

Have fun

Stanislaw.

http://pages.interlog.com/~speff/usefulinfo/fusing.htm

I guess the 5lb spool of AWG39 copper wire I have is a
thousand-lifetime supply of ~2A fuses.

Metal film precision resistors fuse okay, but you'd have to experiment
to find the characteristics.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
What so holy about fuses? Why resistors when in any workplace there are
various wires, copper, aluminium, steel that can be used.
And if you have a normal worktable pull out few nails, they parade as
fuses, no complains whatsoever.

Joking aside, the choice of the correct fuse is not always as obvious as
just finding the right bit of wire.

I designed some equipment which I protected on the incoming mains side
with a 2A slow-blow 20mm glass fuse in an enclosed plastic holder. It
wasn't rated to withstand a dead short, but there was a 3A HRC plugtop
fuse in series, which would do that. Unknown to me, there was an
earthing strap built into one of the equipment's terminal blocks; and it
was on a terminal which I had designated as the live. It put a dead
short across the mains.

The first time I switched on, there was an almighty flash and bang - and
a tinkling noise from behind me. The fuse holder had been blown apart
and pieces of it had just missed my face and hit a metal venetian blind,
the tinkling noise was the debris tumbling down the slats. At the point
of impact, there was a dent in one of the metal blind slats.

Further investigation showed that the plugtop fuse had a very slow
characteristic and had sustained the current long enough to dissipate a
lot of energy in the glass fuse.


A 1W 0.25 ohm resistor would happily carry 2A and would gently overheat
and blow if the current went up to 5A - but under a short-circuit on
240v mains, it would dissipate over 200kW. You wouldn't want that to
continue for very long, so check the time rating of the mains fuse.
 
J

Jasen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sometimes I burn too many regular fuses with prototypes.

Could I use a resistor as a temporary fuse substitute?

a fuse is basically just a cheap form of foldback current
limiting, use a PSU with the real thing.

Bye.
Jasen
 
S

Stanislaw Flatto

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adrian said:
Joking aside, the choice of the correct fuse is not always as obvious as
just finding the right bit of wire.

I designed some equipment which I protected on the incoming mains side
with a 2A slow-blow 20mm glass fuse in an enclosed plastic holder. It
wasn't rated to withstand a dead short, but there was a 3A HRC plugtop
fuse in series, which would do that. Unknown to me, there was an
earthing strap built into one of the equipment's terminal blocks; and it
was on a terminal which I had designated as the live. It put a dead
short across the mains.

The first time I switched on, there was an almighty flash and bang - and
a tinkling noise from behind me. The fuse holder had been blown apart
and pieces of it had just missed my face and hit a metal venetian blind,
the tinkling noise was the debris tumbling down the slats. At the point
of impact, there was a dent in one of the metal blind slats.

Further investigation showed that the plugtop fuse had a very slow
characteristic and had sustained the current long enough to dissipate a
lot of energy in the glass fuse.


A 1W 0.25 ohm resistor would happily carry 2A and would gently overheat
and blow if the current went up to 5A - but under a short-circuit on
240v mains, it would dissipate over 200kW. You wouldn't want that to
continue for very long, so check the time rating of the mains fuse.
Been there, done it!
On 48v DC supplied from glass cells, each the size of a small fridge,
the disengaging fuse acts as well working welder, and the enclosures
explode happily,
Fortunate are people working in AC where the welding conditions stay on
till the sine crosses the zero volt line and does not reignite on the
small opening in fuse.
Some people are lucky, others have to learn.

Stanislaw
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
Carbon is not okay. It has a negative temperature coefficient of
resistance and if things go wrong, you can find your 10k carbon film
resistor carrying about an ampere at a voltage drop of a few volts or
less - all the current is flowing down a narrow, red-hot channel
through the carbon film

Not my experience, and anyone can get a couple of 10 Ohm 1/4 watt carbon
resistors and verify that on a LAB supply.

Actually you can also test you strands of wire from a flatcable that way,
to see how many you need for say 3A (burn out).


You are probably referring to composite carbon resistors, like 'Vitrohm'
used to make, they would open split apart, and perhaps occasionaly short.

Normal carbon resistors these days have ceramic body with a spiral
carbon track around it.
The track width and number of turns sets resistance, and thickness.
In case of overload the track just opens.

Metal fim and metal oxide resistors do at least have a positive
temperature coefficient of resistance,

Irrelevant, even if TC was 10% per degree C, it is going to blow up so who cares.

They are designed to run hot
when dissipated their rated load - somewhere around 250C - so if yu do
want to use them as fuses, bend the leads so the resistor body sits a
couple of millimetres above the printed circuit board.

Sure, that is normal practice, and a metal film mounted like that burned
a hole though my peeseebee.
 
A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
Stanislaw Flatto said:
Been there, done it!
On 48v DC supplied from glass cells, each the size of a small fridge,
the disengaging fuse acts as well working welder, and the enclosures
explode happily,
Fortunate are people working in AC where the welding conditions stay on
till the sine crosses the zero volt line and does not reignite on the
small opening in fuse.
Some people are lucky, others have to learn.

The majority of tramways still run on 600 - 750v DC. To protect against
lightning strike, each tramcar has an air-cored choke in series with the
incoming supply, with a spark-gap on the 'hot' side of it. Once
intitiated, the discharge across the gap would continue until the 600v
supply was interrupted.

On older tramcars, the interrupter was mounted under the roof canopy
just above the driver's head. It quenched its own arc with a magnetic
blow-out coil, which stretched the arc down a fireproof chute and out
through the side of the breaker. This made a very loud bang or
sometimes even a shriek or a whistle.

Another characteristic of older tramcars was that the cupboard under the
downstairs seats, which housed the spark gap, was rarely swept-out and
accumulated a lot of flammable dust.

The sequence during a thunderstorm was:

1) Lightning strikes...

2) Spark Gap operates...

3) Dust explosion blows front off cupboard to expose flaring arc...

4) Breaker just over driver's head operates with flash and loud bang.

The instructions were that the driver should then re-set the breaker and
continue driving normally, as quickly as possible. Brave men!
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jasen said:
a fuse is basically just a cheap form of foldback current
limiting, use a PSU with the real thing.

The PSU supplying many fuses has a 'current limit' measured in kiloAmps.

Graham
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
[... resistor fuse and a real fuse ...]
??? The system fuse protects the fuse resistor??
Does this mean the system fuse is more sensitive and the fuse resistor
can never blow..??

The resistor can only work as a fuse in the test department ie: before
the real fuse is in the circuit.

Was that fuse resistor in series with the true fuse?

Yes once the thing was assembled.
But wouldn't a dummy fuse be needed during testing?

No because the PCB isn't in the chassis at that point.
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Approx 2A... It's inline with the household line voltage.
D from BC

This thread reminds me of something in my TV servicing days.

At one point the market was flooded by a certain brand of far eastern 14"
portables, a stock fault with these was dried up electrolytics in the PSU
which resulted in regulation failure, core saturation and destruction of the
chopper transistor - the inrush limiting resistor always protected the fuse!

The resistor in question was a 4.7 Ohm 5W WW - one of those white ceramic
'box' with a spiral wound element cemented in.
 
Not my experience,

I watched while my boss set up the situation and measured currents and
voltage myself once he'd got the resistor into the stae he wanted.
This was back in 1975, and the guy was an active member of the group
controlling the "intrinsic safety" rules for electronic equipment to
be used in areas wherre the was a risk of igniting inflammable gases
or liquids. I've forgotten exactly how he got the current to
concentrate itself into a red-hot filament in the carbon film - he had
a procedure that worked reliably, probably picked up at an instrinsic
safety committee meeting.
and anyone can get a couple of 10 Ohm 1/4 watt carbon
resistors and verify that on a LAB supply.

They can probably replicate your experience more easily than mine, but
the two situations aren't mutually exclusive.
Actually you can also test you strands of wire from a flatcable that way,
to see how many you need for say 3A (burn out).

Most metals have a postive temperature coefficient of resistance, so
this is irrelevant.
You are probably referring to composite carbon resistors, like 'Vitrohm'
used to make, they would open split apart, and perhaps occasionaly short.

No, it was a good quality Philips carbon fim resistor.
Normal carbon resistors these days have ceramic body with a spiral
carbon track around it.
The track width and number of turns sets resistance, and thickness.
In case of overload the track just opens.

Mostly. Raise the power dissipation at the right rate and you can
create and sustain a low reistiance hot channel through the carbon
film.
Irrelevant, even if TC was 10% per degree C, it is going to blow up so who cares.

An incorrect and potentially dangerous misconception.
Sure, that is normal practice, and a metal film mounted like that burned
a hole though my peeseebee.

It wasn't normal practice anywhere I've worked - axial lead resistors
were supposed to contact the printed circuit board at two points. If
they were mounted out of contact with the board, they became
susceptible to vibration - with body of the resistor acting as a mass
on the end of the notionally springy metal leads - and people fussed
about eventual fatigue fractures in the leads.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
This was back in 1975,

dinosaurs ruled the world back then.
I predate these.

and the guy was an active member of the group
controlling the "intrinsic safety" rules for electronic equipment to

Maybe just like the greens today.

be used in areas wherre the was a risk of igniting inflammable gases
or liquids. I've forgotten exactly how he got the current to
concentrate itself into a red-hot filament in the carbon film - he had
a procedure that worked reliably, probably picked up at an instrinsic
safety committee meeting.

Burning carbon quickly oxidises with air, this was exactly why Swan (UK) and Edison (US)
had to use vacuum in their light bulbs.
If no vacuum the thing went out in seconds.
But maybe the guy was from before electric light.
They can probably replicate your experience more easily than mine, but
the two situations aren't mutually exclusive.


Most metals have a postive temperature coefficient of resistance, so
this is irrelevant.

We were talking about fuses so it _is_ relevant.

No, it was a good quality Philips carbon fim resistor.

mmm, Philips made very extensive use of these 1/4 W carbons as fusible,
mounted away from the board, K6, K8 TV chassis IIRC.
In fact I got the idea from them.
Raise the power dissipation at the right rate and you can
create and sustain a low reistiance hot channel through the carbon
film.

Edison would have loved you so much.
Years he tried, and failed.
Until he did read about some professor who called him an idiot, because
air would burn his carbon wire.... Edison then bought a vacuum pump...
And Menlo park had electric light.
Or were you designing for space?

An incorrect and potentially dangerous misconception.

Oh well.
It wasn't normal practice anywhere I've worked

It is normal practice if you use these things as _fusible_.
I dunno were you worked, but it cannot have been industry.
susceptible to vibration - with body of the resistor acting as a mass
on the end of the notionally springy metal leads - and people fussed
about eventual fatigue fractures in the leads.

A look at some Japanese transistor radios showed them using resistors vertical,
with one end folded back, the folded back wire painted, so it would be isolated
and not short against an other one one millimetre away.
You could drop these, and all resistors would point the other way, but it would still
work 20 years later.

El Pante
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
a fuse is basically just a cheap form of foldback current
limiting, use a PSU with the real thing.

Bye.
Jasen

Well.. I know a design for electronic current limiting of 120VAC with
an adjustment range of 50mA to 15 amps.
I guess I should build this project someday as it would be useful for
years..
But it'll take 2 days..
It's quicker and easier to just blow up the occasional fuse or burn
resistors acting as temporary fuses for prototype debugging.

Also..If I did make the electronic AC current limiter, I might need to
imitate fuse behavior. Call it a fuse emulator? Fuse simulator?
D from BC
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
Burning carbon quickly oxidises with air

Yes, it's called burning and is why the use of such as protective parts is deprecated today.
See EN60065 et all.

Graham
 
S

Stanislaw Flatto

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adrian said:
The majority of tramways still run on 600 - 750v DC. To protect against
lightning strike, each tramcar has an air-cored choke in series with the
incoming supply, with a spark-gap on the 'hot' side of it. Once
intitiated, the discharge across the gap would continue until the 600v
supply was interrupted.

On older tramcars, the interrupter was mounted under the roof canopy
just above the driver's head. It quenched its own arc with a magnetic
blow-out coil, which stretched the arc down a fireproof chute and out
through the side of the breaker. This made a very loud bang or
sometimes even a shriek or a whistle.

Another characteristic of older tramcars was that the cupboard under the
downstairs seats, which housed the spark gap, was rarely swept-out and
accumulated a lot of flammable dust.

The sequence during a thunderstorm was:

1) Lightning strikes...

2) Spark Gap operates...

3) Dust explosion blows front off cupboard to expose flaring arc...

4) Breaker just over driver's head operates with flash and loud bang.

The instructions were that the driver should then re-set the breaker and
continue driving normally, as quickly as possible. Brave men!
Never worked in electric trains and such but it seems that those
problems pop up in every branch of electric/electronic activity.
To each his own.
BTW I still remember from the late 40's an air gap on the radio antenna
wire.

Stanislaw.
 
dinosaurs ruled the world back then.
I predate these.


Maybe just like the greens today.

Nothing to do with environmentalists - it was a serious industry-based
group, George Kent sold a whole lot of "intrisicly safe" electronics
for use in oil refineries and the like.
Burning carbon quickly oxidises with air, this was exactly why Swan (UK) and Edison (US)
had to use vacuum in their light bulbs.
If no vacuum the thing went out in seconds.
But maybe the guy was from before electric light.

The resistor I saw did not burn out in seconds, and the "red hot"
channel only showed as a discoloured line along the surface of the
resistor.
We were talking about fuses so it _is_ relevant.

I was talking about why your should not use carbon resistors as fuses,
and this point is thorougly irrelevant to that discussion.
mmm, Philips made very extensive use of these 1/4 W carbons as fusible,
mounted away from the board, K6, K8 TV chassis IIRC.

Philips also made properly specified fusible metal oxide resistors,
which looked pretty much identical to their 0.25W carbon and 0.8W
metal film resistors. Are you sure you sure that the reisistors
Philips used as fuses really were carbon film parts?
In fact I got the idea from them.

Funny that Philips went to the trouble of making proper fusible metal
oxide resistors if their carbon film resistors would do the same job.
Edison would have loved you so much.
Years he tried, and failed.

Edison wanted the surface of his carbon resistor to glow for months
and years. A hot conductive filament buried inside a carbon resistor
doesn't have to last for very long to make it useless as a fuse, and
is nowhere near as acessible to atmospheric oxygen as as the surface.
Until he did read about some professor who called him an idiot, because
air would burn his carbon wire.... Edison then bought a vacuum pump...
And Menlo park had electric light.
Or were you designing for space?

I wasn't designing these devices, just acting as a captive audience
while being instructed why carbon film resistors were not a good idea
inside intrinsicly safe equipment, since they couldn't be relied on to
fail open circuit.
Oh well.



It is normal practice if you use these things as _fusible_.
I dunno were you worked, but it cannot have been industry.

Kent Instruments in Luton was industry. Cambridge Instruments in
Cambridge made electron miscropes at the rate of several hundred a
year, and looked very like industry to everybody working there, though
they were a bit slap-dash in comparison to Kent Instruments and ITT-
Creed in Brighton, where stuff was produced at rates going up to a
couple of thousand units a year.
A look at some Japanese transistor radios showed them using resistors vertical,
with one end folded back, the folded back wire painted, so it would be isolated
and not short against an other one one millimetre away.
You could drop these, and all resistors would point the other way, but it would still
work 20 years later.

But not for much longer than twenty years - mine stopped working after
about twenty years, mainly because a few of the vertically mounted
resistors had broken up their printed circuit tracks. I fixed it a
couple of times but eventually bought something better.

Consumer products don't have to be as reliable as industrial units,
and don't usually have to cope with as much vibration.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not my experience, and anyone can get a couple of 10 Ohm 1/4 watt carbon
resistors and verify that on a LAB supply.

Actually you can also test you strands of wire from a flatcable that way,
to see how many you need for say 3A (burn out).


You are probably referring to composite carbon resistors, like 'Vitrohm'
used to make, they would open split apart, and perhaps occasionaly short.

Normal carbon resistors these days have ceramic body with a spiral
carbon track around it.
The track width and number of turns sets resistance, and thickness.
In case of overload the track just opens.

Carbon film resistors can form a carbon arc if you hit them with a bit
overload at sufficient voltage. Try putting a 1K 1/4W resistor across
120VAC.

You end up with a glowing ceramic rod and a lot of current flowing.
SMT resistors, which are not carbon, are probably more reliable as
fuses, but you can also buy SMT fuses all ready made like.

BTW, IIRC 10 ohm "carbon film" resistors are generally not actually
carbon film, but some kind of metal film (nickel alloy or something
like that). They transition between technologies at some resistance
level, which I don't recall (probably manufacturer-dependent), but it
is below 100 ohms. Philips used to list the characteristics in their
detailed data-- the tempco was typically quite a bit better for
low-ohm 5% leaded resistors than for higher resistances.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
Carbon film resistors can form a carbon arc if you hit them with a bit
overload at sufficient voltage. Try putting a 1K 1/4W resistor across
120VAC.

Yes, that is why I wrote in my first reply on this topic that
'the distance must be big enough so the electrons take no shortcut'.
You end up with a glowing ceramic rod and a lot of current flowing.
SMT resistors, which are not carbon, are probably more reliable as
fuses, but you can also buy SMT fuses all ready made like.

I have never used SMT fusables... no comment.

BTW, IIRC 10 ohm "carbon film" resistors are generally not actually
carbon film, but some kind of metal film (nickel alloy or something
like that). They transition between technologies at some resistance
level, which I don't recall (probably manufacturer-dependent), but it
is below 100 ohms. Philips used to list the characteristics in their
detailed data-- the tempco was typically quite a bit better for
low-ohm 5% leaded resistors than for higher resistances.


You may well be right, maybe I am a bit too old school, I remember in
my early electronic days metal film existed, but nobody used it, no
shop had it...
They first started appearing in consumer stuff like audio because of lower
noise then carbon.

I dunno what Philips put in the resistors, I have scraped a few of, and
measured some that had the paint burned but still the carbon (or
whatever) spiral exposed, sometimes to see where it was open.
Some crack is all it takes, it would sputter an burn the carbon at
that spot.
My recent experience with metal film was that it did _not_ open, and worked
as heater element :)

Maybe you remember those very high value high voltage carbon resistors too,
a paper tube with a carbon spiral on it..... these are several centimeters long.
For high voltage use longer resistor.
And those would open too... Not used as 'fusible' though.

Maybe better forget fusible resistros, uses some real fuses, repair with wire.
 
Carbon film resistors can form a carbon arc if you hit them with a bit
overload at sufficient voltage. Try putting a 1K 1/4W resistor across
120VAC.

You end up with a glowing ceramic rod and a lot of current flowing.

If you do it right, you can end up with a lot of current flowing at a
relatively low voltage drop with very little dissipation and no glow.
This can be a bit disconcerting when you realise that you are seeing
several amperes flowing through an ostensibly normal looking 10k
carbon film resistor.

<snipped the rest of the good stuff>
 
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