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A Purely-Electronic Brain -- Possible?

A

Allen L. Barker

Jan 1, 1970
0
r said:
Unfortunately, this particular view of how biological machinery works
won't get too far on bionet.neuroscience which is supposed to be
restricted to actual science.


Growing a Brain in Switzerland
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,466789,00.html
By Manfred Dworschak
February 16, 2007

A network of artificial nerves is growing in a Swiss supercomputer
-- meant to simulate a natural brain, cell-for-cell. The researchers
at work on "Blue Brain" promise new insights into the sources of
human consciousness.
 
R

r norman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Growing a Brain in Switzerland
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,466789,00.html
By Manfred Dworschak
February 16, 2007

A network of artificial nerves is growing in a Swiss supercomputer
-- meant to simulate a natural brain, cell-for-cell. The researchers
at work on "Blue Brain" promise new insights into the sources of
human consciousness.

That web site deals with a project that has more physiological
validity than most of the AI stuff you see, but still a reference to a
peer reviewed journal article carries just a bit more weight than a
press release and newspaper article.

But that is not the point at all. You quoted me but snipped away all
context. The specifics about "this particular view" that I claim is
not scientific refers to a statement about, first a redox reactions
between neurotransmitter and receptor ("electron jumps"), second about
how such a redox reaction is a quantum effect, third about how such a
redox reaction (or any other neural process) is "influenced by [the]
brain's own electromagnetic field", not to mention the need to
"calculate FFT in planck time".
 
B

bob the builder

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi:

Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?

Why would you want it to be exactly the same? Why not an 'electronic
brain' that shares some of the most important properties of a real
one? I guess if you really understand a process then you can model it.
The model will share some properties of the thing modeled. Lets hope
it are the most interesting ones...
If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?

Why the hell would you want to do that? Its like putting wheels on a
horse, yes it can work, but its not pretty.
Thanks,

Radium

oh , and dont listen to what everybody else is saying, keep dreaming.
Some of the biggest scientific discoveries where made by people
ridiculed by the 'scientific community',
 
K

kony

Jan 1, 1970
0
oh , and dont listen to what everybody else is saying, keep dreaming.
Some of the biggest scientific discoveries where made by people
ridiculed by the 'scientific community',


You forget that we have already had the /privilege/ of
seeing Radium work through the ideas held, and benefit of
hindsight. For all the scientists who actively WORKED on a
concept there were also plenty of kooks who just piddled
around and did nothing useful. The difference was the goal,
well actually HAVING one would be a start.
 
B

bob the builder

Jan 1, 1970
0
You forget that we have already had the /privilege/ of
seeing Radium work through the ideas held, and benefit of
hindsight. For all the scientists who actively WORKED on a
concept there were also plenty of kooks who just piddled
around and did nothing useful. The difference was the goal,
well actually HAVING one would be a start.

most famous scientist where kooks. I believe Newton tried to transform
all kind of metals to gold. Einstein , besides his theory of
relativity, also did it with a close relative. Tesla anyone?
And how do you know if something is going to be usefull?

But i agree with 'having a goal'. It seems that the most famous
innovators are complete idiots with a plan.
 
K

kony

Jan 1, 1970
0
most famous scientist where kooks.

No, not in this sense of frivolous daydream without any
follow-through. They had purpose, it was a means to an end.

I believe Newton tried to transform
all kind of metals to gold. Einstein , besides his theory of
relativity, also did it with a close relative. Tesla anyone?
And how do you know if something is going to be usefull?

The difference is the daydreaming was a suppliment, one of
many means towards the end, not the core purpose.

But i agree with 'having a goal'. It seems that the most famous
innovators are complete idiots with a plan.

Yes it all starts with a plan, for better or worse there has
to be a real constructive intention and some thought put
into how to achieve that.
 
G

Guy Fawkes

Jan 1, 1970
0
Radium said:
Hi:

Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?

Yes, it's called a positronic brain.
If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?

Yes, that will be possible. But it won't be like a recording device, since
the brain doesn't actually store 'images'
 
S

steve

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi:

Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?

If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?

Thanks,

Radium

It comes down to two questions

1) Is there any known process/algorithm that can't be theoretically
replicated/simulated in a computer?

2) Do you think the brain's mechanism of operation is ultimately
unknowable?

In general when we don't understand something we usually overestimate
the problem to be orders of magnitude more complicated then it really
is...
 
A

Andrew Smallshaw

Jan 1, 1970
0
2) Do you think the brain's mechanism of operation is ultimately
unknowable?

In general when we don't understand something we usually overestimate
the problem to be orders of magnitude more complicated then it really
is...

I wouldn't say that that is a general rule. AI is the classic
example of an area where despite decades and millions of dollars
worth of research, the results have been somewhat less than
spectacular. Consider the relative lack of progress on the Turing
test, for example.

As for the question of whether the brain is "unknowable", this is
a legitimate question. It's impossible to emulate a system in
another system less complex than itself, and so it could well turn
out that we simply don't have the mental capacity to understand
the brain. We may be able to make progress using a divide and
conquer approach, breaking the brain down into different "subsystems"
which can be analysed, but the brain as a whole must surely be
simply too complex to understand in its entirety.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wouldn't say that that is a general rule. AI is the classic
example of an area where despite decades and millions of dollars
worth of research, the results have been somewhat less than
spectacular. Consider the relative lack of progress on the Turing
test, for example.

As for the question of whether the brain is "unknowable", this is
a legitimate question. It's impossible to emulate a system in
another system less complex than itself, and so it could well turn
out that we simply don't have the mental capacity to understand
the brain. We may be able to make progress using a divide and
conquer approach, breaking the brain down into different "subsystems"
which can be analysed, but the brain as a whole must surely be
simply too complex to understand in its entirety.

Maybe we should look into how, say, an ameba gets around without one?

Might not that be more useful in the long run? :)

Cheers!
Rich
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi:

Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?

If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?

Thanks,

Radium

I saw an interesting documentary the other night on research into the
human heart having active brain cells, and how many heart transplant
recipients develop traits of the donor such as the ability to paint or
write poetry, or a passion for adventure activities etc Interesting
stuff.
A far cry from Fuzzy Logic. Speaking of which I saw Ross Noble's Fizzy
Logic show the other week at the Melbourne comedy festival, damn
funny, almost wet myself. Hope the new electronic brain has a sense of
humour like that.

Dave.
 
S

steve

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Apr 18, 2:55 pm, Andrew Smallshaw
I wouldn't say that that is a general rule. AI is the classic
example of an area where despite decades and millions of dollars
worth of research, the results have been somewhat less than
spectacular. Consider the relative lack of progress on the Turing
test, for example.

I only meant to imply when the understanding comes, it will seem, in
retrospect, a simple problem, the getting will still be long and
hard.
As for the question of whether the brain is "unknowable", this is
a legitimate question. It's impossible to emulate a system in
another system less complex than itself, and so it could well turn
out that we simply don't have the mental capacity to understand
the brain. We may be able to make progress using a divide and
conquer approach, breaking the brain down into different "subsystems"
which can be analysed, but the brain as a whole must surely be
simply too complex to understand in its entirety.

Maybe, but I don't think so, the average human brain by itself doesn't
do anything spectacular. The apparent complexity we now see is the
result of the accumulation of many thousands of years of the combined
achievements of many millions of brains . (And many of the
achievements have come by accidents along the way too.)

Take a group of human children and throw them onto a deserted island
for 30 years and you will have a display of brain power that is more
complex then a group of apes, but not by much.

I'm just saying that when we think of a human brain most people
immediately think of Einstein, when that is the exception to the rule,
not the norm. The average brain mostly knows how to interact with
other humans, learn and repeat tasks shown to them, reproduce etc,
with little "originality".

Indeed, the conversation we are having now is mostly of regurgitation
of past articles, books, texts that have been produced over many
years, with little original content. :) I don't think we need exotic
technology (e.g., quantum physics) to explain it.
 
B

bob the builder

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wouldn't say that that is a general rule. AI is the classic
example of an area where despite decades and millions of dollars
worth of research, the results have been somewhat less than
spectacular. Consider the relative lack of progress on the Turing
test, for example.

Well, only a few decades, and only a few dollars. It seems like a
difficult problem :p
As for the question of whether the brain is "unknowable", this is
a legitimate question. It's impossible to emulate a system in
another system less complex than itself, and so it could well turn
out that we simply don't have the mental capacity to understand
the brain.

Thats just silly, i dont understand fire but i Can make fire. And
maybe the brain isnt that complex, but just alot of the same. Size is
not complexity.
We may be able to make progress using a divide and
conquer approach, breaking the brain down into different "subsystems"
which can be analysed, but the brain as a whole must surely be
simply too complex to understand in its entirety.

Well that goes for anything. I cant understand a single grain of sand
in its entirety. All the atoms, electrons and the suff inside atoms..
eh quarks or whats their name?
 
Hi:

Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?

If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
Conceptually, there is no problem. Practically, it is not possible.

There are 100 billion neurons. If they are implemented in electronic
circuitry, it would cost a lot of money. It would take a lot of time.
Say, like a thousand billion dollars spread over two centuries. Then
why? You can hire grad students at minimum wage.

People are really interested in the soul, the body/soul problem. If we
build an electronic brain, will it have a soul?

ray

This is a conjecture about how a brain might work.
If you are interested in the brain, you might look at:

http://home.nycap.rr.com/rscanlon/brain/brain.htm
 
B

bob the builder

Jan 1, 1970
0
Conceptually, there is no problem. Practically, it is not possible.

There are 100 billion neurons. If they are implemented in electronic
circuitry, it would cost a lot of money. It would take a lot of time.
Say, like a thousand billion dollars spread over two centuries.

Its more practical to use a programming language and some general
purpose hardware. Big companies like Intel, AMD ,IBM etc will invest
the Billions for general purpose hardware. A scientist can get it from
a shop around the corner for cheap.
Then
why? You can hire grad students at minimum wage.

Why? thats just what people do. Why go to the moon? Why build a
fushion reactor ?
 
Its more practical to use a programming language and some general
purpose hardware. Big companies like Intel, AMD ,IBM etc will invest
the Billions for general purpose hardware. A scientist can get it from
a shop around the corner for cheap.

A little reality check here.

With a desktop and NEURON, one can model a dozen neurons, modeling
only the electrical characteristics. This will exhaust your PC.

A very serious effort is underway in Lausanne, Blue Brain. IBM
furnished a super computer. There are about thirty-five very, very
bright people involved directly. They have successfully modeled a rat
macrocolumn (about 10,000 neurons). They are talking with IBM about
the next evolution of super computers. A rat macrocolumn is probably
(certainly?) equivalent to a human macrocolumn. They need to scale-up
by a factor of ten million to get to the level of a human brain.

These neurons lack their chemical insides. They simulate the
electrical signals, but not the molecular machines that produce them.
The cells do not model the proteins, or the genome. They say they are
going to add the proteins later.

They are very, very confident. They intend to model the entire human
brain.

Others are skeptical.
Why? thats just what people do. Why go to the moon? Why build a
fushion reactor ?

This question is asked of people working on Blue Brain. They have no
answer.
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
People are really interested in the soul, the body/soul problem. If we
build an electronic brain, will it have a soul?

Why should it? What good evidence is there that WE
have one in the first place?

A more interesting and practical question would be whether
an AI would be considered a "person" from a legal, ethical,
or moral perspective.


Bob M.
 
R

Rich the Philosophizer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Why should it? What good evidence is there that WE
have one in the first place?

A more interesting and practical question would be whether
an AI would be considered a "person" from a legal, ethical,
or moral perspective.

Did you see the "Mr. Data is a toaster" ep of ST:TNG? :)

"[there are] two kinds of awareness... conscious awareness and sentient
awareness. The awareness of mind is called 'consciousness', and the
awareness of emotions and body sensations is called 'sentience' or
'feeling.'"
--- excerpted from http://www.godchannel.com/awareness.html

I'll be impressed when I see a machine that can feel.

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

r norman

Jan 1, 1970
0
A little reality check here.

Reality, sadly, has little to do with the discussion.
With a desktop and NEURON, one can model a dozen neurons, modeling
only the electrical characteristics. This will exhaust your PC.

A very serious effort is underway in Lausanne, Blue Brain. IBM
furnished a super computer. There are about thirty-five very, very
bright people involved directly. They have successfully modeled a rat
macrocolumn (about 10,000 neurons). They are talking with IBM about
the next evolution of super computers. A rat macrocolumn is probably
(certainly?) equivalent to a human macrocolumn. They need to scale-up
by a factor of ten million to get to the level of a human brain.

These neurons lack their chemical insides. They simulate the
electrical signals, but not the molecular machines that produce them.
The cells do not model the proteins, or the genome. They say they are
going to add the proteins later.

They are very, very confident. They intend to model the entire human
brain.

Others are skeptical.

I detect a tongue-firmly-in-cheek---rather-an-extreme-understatement
about this last comment.

Physical scientists, mathematicians, computer scientists, and
practitioners of various arcane trades that bear little resemblance to
science have difficulty understanding that "the brain" is living
matter. Action potentials are the easiest thing to "see" about brain
activity and so, goes the mistaken general idea, if we recreate the
action potentials then we recreate the brain. Action potentials are
probably the least important of the brain's machinery and large
numbers of neurons function quite happily without being able to make
action potentials at all. That the life of the cell has anything to
do with the function of a neuron is seemingly incomprehensible.

And, it might be mentioned, just what are all those glia doing, just
holding the neurons together (and apart)?
 
R

Richard Dobson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich the Philosophizer wrote:
...
"[there are] two kinds of awareness... conscious awareness and sentient
awareness. The awareness of mind is called 'consciousness', and the
awareness of emotions and body sensations is called 'sentience' or
'feeling.'"
--- excerpted from http://www.godchannel.com/awareness.html

I'll be impressed when I see a machine that can feel.
It will depend on what is available to it to feel with. Digital nervous
system? Digital skin?

Richard Dobson
 
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