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Detecting tiny pulses after a very large one

R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
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* ---^--- Decent idea; is there any experience as to the recovery time?
 
T

tm

Jan 1, 1970
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Joerg said:
Robert said:
* ---^--- Decent idea; is there any experience as to the recovery time?

It's fast, but AFAICT there ain't no ferrites that would even work at
3GHz.

[...]

I have used ferrite isolators past X-Band.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
George said:

Those are the usual bifilar (sometimes multifilar) winding transformers.
The core only provides coupling at lower frequencies (<1GHz), at high
frequencies it behaves like an "air core" transformer. Up there, they
won't saturate. Like in the old Volkswagen ads touting their air-cooled
engines, "air does not freeze" :)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
tm said:
Joerg said:
Robert said:
Wond wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:41:51 -0700, George Herold wrote:

51 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

<snip>

How about a Nuvistor? Sounds like a job for a tube, for sure.

Haha! Here I was, looking for depletion mode MOSFETs to see if they
could be of any use here... Thanks for the hint. I'll check it out.

The beam transformer is a 'wall current monitor'. It doesn't really
have anything that looks like a winding.


Too bad. That two-winding hack would have been slick.

Hmm well I wonder if you could make a transformer such that it would
saturate with the big pulse... but let the little guys through...
Maybe
* ---^--- Decent idea; is there any experience as to the recovery time?

It's fast, but AFAICT there ain't no ferrites that would even work at
3GHz.

[...]

I have used ferrite isolators past X-Band.

Ok, there is some material available but that has DoD pricing level.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
I think it's very descriptive and clear--similar to how people describe
the operation of CCDs. What don't you like about it?

I just designed an X-ray controller and one section is called "spit
detector". No kidding. Has nothing to do with chewing tobacco or
spittoons. That is the colloquial expression for tube arcing among those
in the know in the field of X-ray.
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
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Robert Baer said:
* ---^--- Decent idea; is there any experience as to the recovery time?

Saturation doesn't work that way -- takes flux (volt seconds), not
voltage. At best, you could clamp the later part of the spike, once the
ferrite's charged up (so it tightens to a narrower pulse, but the peak
value remains). You still need freewheeling to discharge it, which means
as soon as that pulse is gone, you're going to have at least as big of a
tail (at minimum, the waveform will look like dV/dt with a peak voltage
similar to the original; at best, high frequencies will be attenuated in
the ferrite and it will relax slowly).

A rectangular pulse, 600V * 4ns, is only 2.4 uVs, so you'd need quite a
small core (about 8 mm^2 cross sectional area, about what's on a large
ferrite bead-on-lead). I don't think any ferrites go fast enough, anyway;
even the highest are all but RFI shielding by those frequencies. It would
work (in the sense of doing what it will do, not necessarily what's
intended :) ) on pulses of, say, 10V and 100s of ns.

I have another question for the OP:
If these signals are so immensely weak... how is it even possible for the
end purpose to care? How does it know? Surely there will always be some
leakage between buckets, and the goal is simply minimizing the amount, and
mitigating the error resulting therefrom?

Since this is physics we're talking, wouldn't it be possible to add two
"kickers" to the line, timed to the big pulse, which neatly remove the
leading and following buckets? If that requires modifying or lengthening
the line (or, if the buckets are already zooming along near the speed of
light.. it may require a bend!), well... whoever designed this should've
thought of it in the first place..?

Tim
 
J

Jeroen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Baer said:
* ---^--- Decent idea; is there any experience as to the recovery time?

Saturation doesn't work that way --[...]

I have another question for the OP:
If these signals are so immensely weak... how is it even possible for the
end purpose to care? How does it know? Surely there will always be some
leakage between buckets, and the goal is simply minimizing the amount, and
mitigating the error resulting therefrom?

The beam in the LHC is supposed to have gaps in it that allow the
ejection kickers time to rise to their proper values. If there is
residual beam in these gaps, the kicker would sweep it through
the volume of the nearby superconducting magnets which might cause
them to quench.

As far as I know, that didn't actually occur yet, but the beam intensity
in the LHC is raised ever higher in the interest of getting more
physics results out of this very expensive machine. With increasing
intensities come increasing losses. A way to measure the magnitude of
the problem is the first step towards solving it. That, at least, is my
understanding.
Since this is physics we're talking, wouldn't it be possible to add two
"kickers" to the line, timed to the big pulse, which neatly remove the
leading and following buckets? [...]

Well, this beam is already around 26GeV, and kickers are hefty objects
at those energies. Before adding lots of expensive hardware, let's see
if we can solve the problem by properly adjusting the beam handling RF.

Jeroen Belleman
 
G

George Herold

Jan 1, 1970
0
Saturation doesn't work that way -- takes flux (volt seconds), not
voltage. At best, you could clamp the later part of the spike, once the
ferrite's charged up (so it tightens to a narrower pulse, but the peak
value remains). You still need freewheeling to discharge it, which means
as soon as that pulse is gone, you're going to have at least as big of a
tail (at minimum, the waveform will look like dV/dt with a peak voltage
similar to the original; at best, high frequencies will be attenuated in
the ferrite and it will relax slowly).

Ahh! Thanks! Yeah we did this flux gate thing with saturation...
I couldn't understand it till I made this silly model and wrote down the inductor voltage as
V-sub-L = L di/dt + i dL/dt. (OK not sure about the signs....)

OK silly idea,
George H.
 
J

Jeroen

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you're going to use a bunch of brain dead metaphors like "spill"
and "bucket" in reference to electronic design then you get what you
deserve: dumb ideas.

These are in common usage in the accelerator community.
You are welcome to propose better ones. If they are really
good, we may even adopt them. But no one will listen to a
bad-tempered s.e.d. denizen having nothing better to
contribute than the simple declaration that they are 'brain
dead metaphors'.

Jeroen Belleman
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm trying to find a way to detect tiny pulses following a very
large one. I have this beam current transformer sitting in a
particle accelerator, delivering 4ns, 600V pulses in response to
the passage of the main bunch of particles. This bunch fills
one of a continuous sequence of 'RF buckets', while the others
should be empty. In practice, a tiny bit of beam, on the order of
1e-5 times the main beam, leaks into adjacent buckets, and this
bothers the LHC.

If I attenuate down far enough to protect the digitizer's input,
there is no hope of seeing any of this tiny spill, so I must
clip the main pulse and spare the small stuff. The RF buckets
are at 80 MHz, so the clipper must recover fast. To preserve
the 3GHz bandwidth of the signal, it must be a low capacitance
device too. Small enough to hide it by necking down a 50 Ohm
stripline, for example.

I've dabbled a bit with various combinations of attenuators
and Schottky or ESD protection diodes in Spice, and it doesn't
look straight-forward. I'd be abusing the diodes badly, far
exceeding their maximum current. Beefier diodes are slow and
have too much capacitance.

Anyone here wants to share some wisdom?

Thanks,
Jeroen Belleman

That in a nutshell is one of the basic pulse radar problems. Considering
the power levels you should look towards short range capable heavy radar
for typical schemes. Something like SPS-48 or SPS-51 radars might use.

?-)
 
A

Anthony Stewart

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Pin diodes used in the Iridium Sat Phone LNA switch chip could switch between more orders of magnitude in power levels between the Tx signal and the Rx signal in < 10ns with signals up to 5GHz into 50 Ohm loads.

Impedance matching would be required for the current transformer to stripline
 
J

Jeroen Belleman

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm trying to find a way to detect tiny pulses following a very
large one. [....]

Anyone here wants to share some wisdom?

Thanks,
Jeroen Belleman

That in a nutshell is one of the basic pulse radar problems. Considering
the power levels you should look towards short range capable heavy radar
for typical schemes. Something like SPS-48 or SPS-51 radars might use.

?-)

Yes, except that the radar guys usually deal with comparatively
narrow bandwidths, which allows using tricks with lambda/4
transmission lines. I can't do that here.

Jeroen Belleman
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm trying to find a way to detect tiny pulses following a very
large one. [....]

Anyone here wants to share some wisdom?

Thanks,
Jeroen Belleman

That in a nutshell is one of the basic pulse radar problems. Considering
the power levels you should look towards short range capable heavy radar
for typical schemes. Something like SPS-48 or SPS-51 radars might use.

?-)

Yes, except that the radar guys usually deal with comparatively
narrow bandwidths, which allows using tricks with lambda/4
transmission lines. I can't do that here.

Jeroen Belleman

Yes there is a lot of that, but that is not all of the tricks. They also
did noise blanker type tricks.

?-)
 
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