Is this the future?

[bristan]

Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short blackouts
occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of Sydney. I
happened to have a power meter connected at the time and watched as the
voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which level the power went
off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The voltage went back to 230 or
so then the process repeated . This went on for about half an hour. I
switched off what I could but it is a pain having to reset all the clocks,
redate the phone etc. The fridges weren't, to happy about it either. Non
peak times the voltage goes up around 250
Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all the
changes in the electricity arrangements!

 

[John Tserkezis]

Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short
blackouts occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of
Sydney. I happened to have a power meter connected at the time and
watched as the voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which
level the power went off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The
voltage went back to 230 or so then the process repeated . This went on
for about half an hour.

Selective blackouts are the normal response to overloading like that.

Everyone cranks up their aircons at the same time, grid can't keep up,
so it bombs a segment.
It comes back online after awhile, assuming the dickhead users would
have turned off a few things, and the process starts over again.

When there is more load than you can supply, the only option is to cut
power.

I switched off what I could but it is a pain
having to reset all the clocks, redate the phone etc.

This is a no-excuse cheap-arse way to make an appliance. Any way to
save a cent.

The fridges weren't, to happy about it either.

There are control boxes that sense brown or blackouts, and forcibly
keep the fridge off for some time before trying again. If you power up
an the wrong moment in the gas transition phase, it can damage the fridge.

Non peak times the voltage goes up around 250
Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all
the changes in the electricity arrangements!

Depends where you are. I'm in the thick of Sydney, so the likelyhood
of power issues is less, but it's a growing problem.

Adelaide has this issue, and mainly because aircons have put a very
short high load on the grid. To fix it, you need additional power
generation plants to keep up to the demand.
They have more social problem with power. Population has been really
slow to grow, or stable, so new base power stations are out of the question.

Problem with catering for peak demand is, fourfold:

Peak power generation is expensive, because power needs to be ramped
up and down rapidly, coal (cheap) can't be used.
Peak power, because of its very intermittent usage, as well as being
able to ramp power up and down rapidly, to have to be able to turn it
off too. This leaves only a few options as far as generation goes.
Of all those options left, all are frightfully expensive, AND are not
well suited to huge amounts of power - we're not talking a few
households here, it's an entire city, so solar and wind is out.

So you could either resolve all those issues, or, you can tell your
idiot users to not use their aircons all at the same bloody time.

Which do you think is easier?

 

[John Tserkezis]

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Realistically, to run modern fluro/LED lighting for a couple of hours,
you probably wouldn't need a really massive battery, but do this
times 100,000 homes, it would make a big difference.

Lighting accounts for a small portion of power usage, that's why isn't
the problem. Why do you think the government's incandescent ban was such
a screwup? Not only would it not make a significant different, it will
cost end users more.

If they aren't already, they could use ripple control to cut off
things like hot water systems,

They already do that now.

pool filters,

Again, some do that now, not only controlling the time of day of the
runtime, the duration as well to maximise work with least energy.

possibly refrigerators for a short period. (Kill all the fridges connected to a particular
substation for 15 min or so - then turn them off and turn off the next
suburb and so on)Maybe have a thermostat fitted that detects if the
temp gets so dangerously high that a health hazard could exist - and
it will switch the power back on.

There would be a HUGE liability issue if that was done. But
refrigeration isn't the problem either. It disappears into the base
load, so it not a peak issue.

Could also be programmed to lower
the temp of the fridge to less than normal in advance of the "peak
period", so it can stay off for longer at peak times without things
spoiling ?

This is already done with large systems to save power, but it has
nothing to do with peak intervals, it's only to save money to the
company running the fridges. Again, its use averages out to continuous
over 24 hours (along with everyone else) so there is no peak/off peak usage.

Make your next stove gas

Are *YOU* going to be the one who tells people when they can and can't
cook dinner?

or have the BBQ handy for when this sort of thing happens.

So now your telling people not only WHEN to cook, but HOW to cook?

As the saying goes: Good luck with that.

 

[terryc]

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.

 

[Adrian Jansen]

Selective blackouts are the normal response to overloading like that.

Everyone cranks up their aircons at the same time, grid can't keep up,
so it bombs a segment.
It comes back online after awhile, assuming the dickhead users would
have turned off a few things, and the process starts over again.

When there is more load than you can supply, the only option is to cut
power.


This is a no-excuse cheap-arse way to make an appliance. Any way to save
a cent.


There are control boxes that sense brown or blackouts, and forcibly keep
the fridge off for some time before trying again. If you power up an the
wrong moment in the gas transition phase, it can damage the fridge.


Depends where you are. I'm in the thick of Sydney, so the likelyhood of
power issues is less, but it's a growing problem.

Adelaide has this issue, and mainly because aircons have put a very
short high load on the grid. To fix it, you need additional power
generation plants to keep up to the demand.
They have more social problem with power. Population has been really
slow to grow, or stable, so new base power stations are out of the
question.

Problem with catering for peak demand is, fourfold:

Peak power generation is expensive, because power needs to be ramped up
and down rapidly, coal (cheap) can't be used.
Peak power, because of its very intermittent usage, as well as being
able to ramp power up and down rapidly, to have to be able to turn it
off too. This leaves only a few options as far as generation goes.
Of all those options left, all are frightfully expensive, AND are not
well suited to huge amounts of power - we're not talking a few
households here, it's an entire city, so solar and wind is out.

So you could either resolve all those issues, or, you can tell your
idiot users to not use their aircons all at the same bloody time.

Which do you think is easier?

Less consumers = less demand. Easy.

 

[terryc]

Whats wrong with the supplier providing what they sell ??

Shit happens. Some people need power available at certain times, so hey
have to take precautionary measures.

Why should consumers have to consider all these measures because the
supply is inadequate ??

It is about the only alternative. There are others, but just as expensive.

 

[terryc]

I agree with you, but we know that under the current regime in
Canberra,

Has SFA to do with it.

 

[terryc]

by not providing unreliable power

Oh, I thought that was what they did do. <vbg>

 

[terryc]

The carbon rubbish would have a LOT to do with it.

Maybe. All the current/past increases have nothing to do with it either.
all due to mismanagement by state governments of both persuasions.

 

[John Tserkezis]

Not telling anyone WHEN or how to cook, it seems the power authority
is already doing this, by not providing unreliable power

Only when you sign up for a Smart Meter deal that changes the tariff
over different times of day.
Basically, they charge cheap overnight, and gouge you during the day.

Sounds good until you realise that cooking on your electric stove is
only really feasible when you're awake - during the day.
But you can "fix" that with gas - and expect that first installation
fee to dig up the ground to cost you a mint.
And there's the washing - but you can stay up and do that - who needs
sleep anyway.
And of course, expect to be sweating during your sleep time, in the
middle of the fucking day, now that you've shifted your hours to suit THEM.
And only a minor point that your boss wants you there 9-5.
Probably just as well you're saving $10 a year now that you don't have
a job anymore...

Reliability is the LEAST of your worries.

 

[Adrian Jansen]

Just remembered, in the former USSR republics, this sort of thing
happened more and more in the last decade of its existance, to the
point where the state electrical manufacturing company "electronika"
produced these "stabilisers" which from memory had 2 power
transformers and a large inductor (no solid state parts) - in order to
keep the mains at a stable 220v.


I did take a pic, of the device and the schematic for it if anyone is
particularly excited about it.

Saturable reactor transformers ( Stabilac ) have been around for years.
Virtually every lab I ever worked in in any industrial plant had one in
the '50s - '70s, just to keep the lab supply happy when the industrial
sections put huge demands on the mains.

Big lumps of iron and copper, but simple and almost never fail.

 

[terryc]

While you have that shit hanging over your head for the last decade or
so,

I'll give you a heads up, NO power sytation has every been buiklt in
australia with out some back room assurity. This time is no different.
bottom line is no states want more new power stations as that would
reduce the price they can get for their old clunkers when they finally
get around to selling them off.

If indeed the libs do the right thing and scrap this tax, then that is
another thing that has to be resolved before anything can be done. I
would love to see those independents who were paid off for their vote
be stripped of this money and jailed for bribery and fraud, but I
doubt it would happen.

You must have had the blinkers on all your life to not realise this sort
of deal with independents/minor parties has been part of the Australian
political landscape since its inception. Your last sentence really
shoots yourself in the foot.

 

[terryc]

Bullshit, if I am willing to pay for a product then I expect to get it.

I'll let you in on a secret, no one offers that fantasy product.

If the providers want to sell me stuff I don't expect to have to see if
they can provide it.

Read the fine print, they are selling you what you signed up for.

 

[terryc]

Sounds good until you realise that cooking on your electric stove is
only really feasible when you're awake - during the day.
But you can "fix" that with gas - and expect that first installation
fee to dig up the ground to cost you a mint.

Two parts of installation;
1) gas main to house (optional as you can install with lpg cyclinders)
2) house installation; from main/lpg cylinders to outlets.

Just order your appliances* for LPg Vs Natgas.

It is veryeasy to run gas stove top cooking off a pair of 9kg lpg
cyclinders.

It is stuff like LPG heaters during a cold winter that will have you
filling a cylinder or two as regular as your vehicle fuel tank. for
convenience, you can get the larger delivery cylinders, but pay bottle
rental.

And there's the washing - but you can stay up and do that - who needs
sleep anyway.

Timer to start? peg out in the morning.

* My electric oven comes with a start and stop timer, so provided I
don't want a baked dinner**, it could be set to start/stop cooking in
the gheap rate hours.


** I suppose the cheaper way to shift to gas might be to spend a few
thousand on one of ese fancy gas BBQs for he deck <VBG>

 

[terryc]

I don't doubt we are tied up with the fine print, but we are charged a
"supply fee" that purportedly is so that we have continuous supply.

Nope, that would incurr a "continuous supply fee" on top of that.

 

[John Tserkezis]

Two parts of installation;
1) gas main to house (optional as you can install with lpg cyclinders)
2) house installation; from main/lpg cylinders to outlets.

Just order your appliances* for LPg Vs Natgas.

Cheaper in the long run to take from the gas mains.
If you're not going to use gas on a regular basis, or heavily, then
the tanks will probably be the cheaper way out.

Timer to start? peg out in the morning.

* My electric oven comes with a start and stop timer, so provided I
don't want a baked dinner**, it could be set to start/stop cooking in
the gheap rate hours.

Here I have to ask if you *WOULD* do it, not if you *COULD* do it.

There's a difference.

 

[terryc]

Not really, they would have known that the majority didnt want it,
they would have known what damage it would do to the country, so they
were not looking after the nation, or even their electorate, they sold
out an entire nations future for a handful of cash.

Shrug, it is a totally useless poltician that just does what voters want.

 

[terryc]

Cheaper in the long run to take from the gas mains.
If you're not going to use gas on a regular basis, or heavily, then the
tanks will probably be the cheaper way out.

I've never been able to get the figures to supports that.
$19/9kg refill + fuel for car,
$100 pa per cylinder for rental of large homedelivered cylinders and the
fuel was the same ($100/45kg).
$100 pa for the mains service fee and noway of working out the $ of the
gas delivered.

 

[JW]

useless poltician

Redundant.