Maxim IC frustration - hard to find components

[Eeyore]

And oh, as regards my DACs, I did last week give my purchasing people
a list of alternate versions

I gave a list of alternate uCs for a recent project to the 'manager bloke' and he
looked in dismay at it and wanted to know 'which one do we tell them ( the
subcontractor who sources the parts ) to use'. Jesus wept !

Graham

 

[Joerg]

Hello Frank,

What initiative?

The initiative of talking directly to potential customers. By an
employee who really cares and is willing to take risks for her company.

IOW, an initiative that Philips should have also started years ago
before they had to put 80% of their semi biz on the auction block. I
still believe that could have been avoided. Water under the bridge by
now, I guess.

 

[John Larkin]

I'll just add my tuppence worth to that. TI do a great job of sampling parts and
they do arrive *fast*.

I've typed in a TI sample request at 3M, and had it on my desk the
next morning when I staggered in at 9:30.

John

 

[John Jardine.]

In addition, it never fails to amaze me how companies fail to use information
that's readily available to them. I've recenly been having trouble with my
broadband connection which the ISP transferred to another 'network supplier'.
Cutting a long story short in a couple of days I'm going to another ISP, but
somewhat crazily their own plusnet.xxxx newsgroups aren't even formally
monitored - even the feedback one, except for a few dedicated mebers of staff
who seem to check it out *in their spare time*. Jeez !

Graham

[OT]... I'm looking for something more reliable than my rubbish 'Orange
broadband'.
Any suggestion?.
john

 

[John Jardine.]

* Will you be designing in Maxim parts?
No

* Why (or why not)?

Call from PCB makers ... "Can you avoid Maxim parts?, they're bastards to
get hold of".
Me... "Yeah, no problem".
{verbatim]

That was 7 years ago. Reading this thread, seems not a lot's changed.
john

 

[John Larkin]

Hello Rebecca,




Allow me to ask: Why does it require a formal quote just to find out
whether there are enough in stock? Why doesn't Maxim just list that?

The reason is that a design process progresses very fast these days.

Right. I don't have time to spend hours or days deciding if a part is
really available and affordable; that sure breaks up the design flow.
If it's in my stockroom, I know instantly how many we have and what it
costs, so I tend to re-use parts. If it's not, I check Mouser and
Digikey and prefer parts that both have in stock. I figure purchasing
can shop around later for better pricing if necessary. Nothing's more
expensive than a part you can't get.

John

 

[Eeyore]

In addition, it never fails to amaze me how companies fail to use
information that's readily available to them. I've recenly been having
trouble with my broadband connection which the ISP transferred
to another 'network supplier'.

Cutting a long story short in a couple of days I'm going to another ISP,
but somewhat crazily their own plusnet.xxxx newsgroups aren't
even formally monitored - even the feedback one, except for a few
dedicated mebers of staff who seem to check it out *in their spare
time*. Jeez !

[OT]... I'm looking for something more reliable than my rubbish 'Orange
broadband'.
Any suggestion?.

Well...... The whole ISP business seems to be in a state of flux with several
once well-regarded names goofing up and failing to deliver.

Do by all means take a look at adslguide.org. The compare is very revealing.
http://adslguide.org.uk/isps/compare.asp

I'd been moved to an LLU ( Tiscali ) circuit so my options were limited by the
few ISPs who currently accept LLU MACs ( the migration code that allows you to
move ISP without having to pay for 'line activation' all over again ) so I'm
going to Idnet.

Zen are also very well thought of. As seemingly are Nildram at a lower cost.

You ought to take a peek at the forums there too.
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/

The individual forum for each ISP give some idea of what they're like to be
with.

If Idnet is as good as it appears to be and you fancy giving them a go let me
know and I can refer you and we both get a tenner back !

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

I think it would be better if you stopped. Recounting all that can't
improve Rebecca's chances of sorting out the situation; it's more likely
to give the impression that the newsgroup is emotionally antagonistic to
Maxim, which would enrage senior management and could put a stop to the
initiative.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immensely.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

I'm still a share holder and have a right to bitch. If someone decent
company made a raid on Maxim, I'll vote my shares to sell it.

Senior management is too busy reading the inside information dumped on
yahoo forums to worry about ex-employees. The stuff posted on yahoo is
dead on, and they name names.

 

[Rebecca of Maxim Dallas]

So there you have it, Rebecca - across 3 designs MAX has 'lost'
(because they lost the design) over £5MM and possibly over £6MM,
simply because I don't believe they will supply me when I need it, and
therefore I don't design the parts in. Just thought you might want to
see some numbers from a *low volume* OEM.

Cheers

PeteS

Pete,

I don't mind hearing constructive criticism. I understand your
frustration, or at least I try to. I am not an engineer, but of course
in my position I speak with customers who have elevated their issues to
me because they are in dire need. As a stockholder and employee I am
very sorry to hear that we have lost so much when we lost your
business. Right or wrong, it is equally disheartening just to have a
customer (many customers) feel such anger and betrayal towards our
company. It is especially hard for me to hear, because I wonder if
there wasn't something that could have been done to salvage the
situation/relationship. Look at this email thread. I have been
provided with two different customer needs, one for 1 part and one for
4 parts. ALL of which I was able to provide from inventory with almost
no effort. And yet these customers believed there were no parts to be
had. I realize this will not always be the case, and I am not trying
to pretend there are never delivery issues. As I have said before, and
as I read more and more I feel more and more strongly about it,
customers need to be educated about MDD. Distributors absolutely add
value. But MDD has the relationships, expertise, and drive to do
everything in our power to ensure customers have Maxim & Dallas parts
when they need them. If nothing else comes from this usenet thread
(other than the 2 customer's whose problems I have solved), I hope
people are at least aware of MDD and if they are in need of Maxim or
Dallas parts they will contact the manufacturer directly. We will
accept orders for 1 unit or 1 million units. I'm not here to change
your mind, but I am very sorry to have lost you as a customer.

Sincerely, Rebecca

 

[John Woodgate]

In message <[email protected]>, dated

It is especially hard for me to hear, because I wonder if there wasn't
something that could have been done to salvage the
situation/relationship.

No doubt there was, but the opportunity was missed.

Look at this email thread. I have been provided with two different
customer needs, one for 1 part and one for 4 parts. ALL of which I was
able to provide from inventory with almost no effort.

BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM! The customers hit a wall when they tried to get
them, but YOU could break through it 'with almost no effort'. Fix that
situation and sell an extra jillion [1] parts!

And yet these customers believed there were no parts to be had.

Yes, why were they led to believe that? That is where the problem is in
your system.

[1] OK, a jillion is 10^j, and thus purely imaginary.

 

[[email protected]]

I think it would be better if you stopped. Recounting all that can't
improve Rebecca's chances of sorting out the situation; it's more likely
to give the impression that the newsgroup is emotionally antagonistic to
Maxim, which would enrage senior management and could put a stop to the
initiative.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immensely.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

Perhaps so, John, although I find it interesting. I would say that if
Maxim's management gets enraged when criticised, maybe they aren't in
the right job, but that's a separate issue

On the track of this thread, I can actually quantify the loss to Maxim
on the last 3 designs I have done. I initially designed in a number of
MAX parts - a very nice supervisor , some A-Ds, D-As and a number of
general parts. The total price [to me] of those parts (which I did note
before I left the office) was (for all 3 designs) £53.87

Those units have just passed the 10k systems installed point, and seem
set to go at a rate of 50k / year each for the next 2 years at least [
we currently have orders for 30k systems for the next 6 months or so,
and lots of interest beyond that].

So that's about 100k x £53.87; roughly £5.4 million. It's actually a
little higher, as one particular product sells about 2:1 to the other
parts of the system as a standalone unit, but the MAX parts in there
are lower cost total - my guesstimate of the total is £6.5 million
over a 2.5 years period.

So there you have it, Rebecca - across 3 designs MAX has 'lost'
(because they lost the design) over £5MM and possibly over £6MM,
simply because I don't believe they will supply me when I need it, and
therefore I don't design the parts in. Just thought you might want to
see some numbers from a *low volume* OEM.

Cheers

PeteS

You probably know this, but it is better to have 100 customers ordering
10k parts, than one customer ordering a million. This keeps the margin
higher, and if eveyone does their job (a big if), it really isn't much
more work.

 

[Frank Bemelman]

when they need them. If nothing else comes from this usenet thread
(other than the 2 customer's whose problems I have solved), I hope
people are at least aware of MDD and if they are in need of Maxim or
Dallas parts they will contact the manufacturer directly. We will

Many also get their parts for prototypes and small runs, from Digikey or
Mouser. Mouser carries millions of parts, from hundreds of manufacturers.
As far as I can see, not a single one from Maxim. You can ask Mouser
why is that.

 

[Frank Bemelman]

Hello Frank,


The initiative of talking directly to potential customers. By an employee
who really cares and is willing to take risks for her company.

Okay, I must be naive - I never see such things as risks and thus not
as a remarkable initiative. Better to speak up than to remain silent,
regardless the message.

IOW, an initiative that Philips should have also started years ago before
they had to put 80% of their semi biz on the auction block. I still
believe that could have been avoided. Water under the bridge by now, I
guess.

They may have other reasons to sell it.

 

[jasen]

Same problem with all 3 when it comes to our customs clearance charges.
If what I've been told is true, they all get everything checked, even
if the check costs more than the value of the item. Might have changed
a bit, I believe that our $ horizon for a mandatory check has been
raised.

If you do USPS for samples, and the customer wants USPS, why not just
provide it? It's no skin off *your* nose.

didn't they say if customer arranges freight, they won't charge...
send them a stamped addressed envelope.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[YD]

John,

Thank you for your concern, but I am happy to answer Joerg's
question. I do not know why John's initial contact to Maxim did not
lead to the locating of these parts. I can tell you that I did not do
anything extraordinary to locate these parts. They do require a formal
quote be submitted, but if any customer were to submit a quote on our
website while these units remain in stock, they would also be told that
we have these parts available. As I stated very early on, often
customers call and ask for the part they want, and we do not realize
that they are desperate and that we should look for alternatives for
them. Often the lead time quoted (as long as it may be) is suitable
for the customer's production schedule. We cannot assume they need
us to look for an alternative that is available sooner. I do not
pretend that we are without fault. It is very possible that John's
purchasing department called and asked to expedite, and that the sales
person they spoke with only tried to expedite the part on order, and
did not look for alternatives. That would be disappointing, as it is
our policy to offer alternatives.

Thank you.
Rebecca

Teach your sales people to ask "do you need it *now*?" if the customer
isn't forthcoming. If the answer is yes round up some alternatives.
You'll probably have to train them how to do that too.

- YD.

 

[Joerg]

Hello Rebecca,

I don't mind hearing constructive criticism. I understand your
frustration, or at least I try to. I am not an engineer, but of course
in my position I speak with customers who have elevated their issues to
me because they are in dire need. As a stockholder and employee I am
very sorry to hear that we have lost so much when we lost your
business. Right or wrong, it is equally disheartening just to have a
customer (many customers) feel such anger and betrayal towards our
company. It is especially hard for me to hear, because I wonder if
there wasn't something that could have been done to salvage the
situation/relationship. Look at this email thread. I have been
provided with two different customer needs, one for 1 part and one for
4 parts. ALL of which I was able to provide from inventory with almost
no effort. And yet these customers believed there were no parts to be
had. I realize this will not always be the case, and I am not trying
to pretend there are never delivery issues. As I have said before, and
as I read more and more I feel more and more strongly about it,
customers need to be educated about MDD. Distributors absolutely add
value. But MDD has the relationships, expertise, and drive to do
everything in our power to ensure customers have Maxim & Dallas parts
when they need them. If nothing else comes from this usenet thread
(other than the 2 customer's whose problems I have solved), I hope
people are at least aware of MDD and if they are in need of Maxim or
Dallas parts they will contact the manufacturer directly. ...

A lot more has come from this thread, like some crystal-clear
suggestions how to fix things. Ok, let's assume Maxim goes the MDD
route. I still believe you should go Digikey in parallel but it's your
choice. Now, one suggested improvement from this thread you can
implement right away is to eliminate that ridiculous "request formal
quote before we tell you what's in stock" barrier. That, plus staggered
pricing (see Digikey for how that's done). I believe it would be very
detrimental to your business not to do that and, since you are a stock
holder, to your personal financial situation.

...We will accept orders for 1 unit or 1 million units. ...

Very good. But most important is to ensure and track your delivery
performance because this is what seems to have damaged the reputation of
Maxim. Blowing a major shipment due date like what happened in John
Larkin's case can be equivalent to losing a large account for a long
time. There needs to be a mindset at Maxim about how to avoid that in
the future.

 

[PeteS]

Pete,

I don't mind hearing constructive criticism. I understand your
frustration, or at least I try to. I am not an engineer, but of course
in my position I speak with customers who have elevated their issues to
me because they are in dire need. As a stockholder and employee I am
very sorry to hear that we have lost so much when we lost your
business. Right or wrong, it is equally disheartening just to have a
customer (many customers) feel such anger and betrayal towards our
company. It is especially hard for me to hear, because I wonder if
there wasn't something that could have been done to salvage the
situation/relationship. Look at this email thread. I have been
provided with two different customer needs, one for 1 part and one for
4 parts. ALL of which I was able to provide from inventory with almost
no effort. And yet these customers believed there were no parts to be
had. I realize this will not always be the case, and I am not trying
to pretend there are never delivery issues. As I have said before, and
as I read more and more I feel more and more strongly about it,
customers need to be educated about MDD. Distributors absolutely add
value. But MDD has the relationships, expertise, and drive to do
everything in our power to ensure customers have Maxim & Dallas parts
when they need them. If nothing else comes from this usenet thread
(other than the 2 customer's whose problems I have solved), I hope
people are at least aware of MDD and if they are in need of Maxim or
Dallas parts they will contact the manufacturer directly. We will
accept orders for 1 unit or 1 million units. I'm not here to change
your mind, but I am very sorry to have lost you as a customer.

Sincerely, Rebecca

Hi Rebecca

As I noted, you are braving the den here, but if you read very early in
the thread you will find I have had direct chats with Maxim on a number
of occasions, and each time those chats (including the statement from
me that they would lose the design win) never dented the attitudes I
found.

I would *love* to use Maxim parts - there really are some high drool
factor parts in the catalog and some that would be a perfect fit for
me.

As to the ultimate reason I decided to drop Maxim completely, it's
quite simple. As a designer, I need to spend my time designing (and of
course debugging). I simply do not have the time to chase recalcitrant
suppliers.
The facts speak for themselves, in my case. I have been burned too many
times after hearing Maxim promise they had mended their ways, and yet
when it came time to run perhaps few hundred units, I ran into lead
times of 16 - 24 weeks, after being assured these were 'standard'
parts, always kept available.

I am sure you too are a busy person; indeed, with the industry feeling
toward Maxim's delivery, I am sure you are intensely busy. Just like
me, you would not want to have to keep chasing someone who said they
would deliver something and then at delivery time told you it would be
another 4 months. You'd drop them as a supplier if they kept doing it.
It's got nothing to do with part quality and everything to do with *my*
product availability.

As I have also noted, when I *see* Maxim mend their ways (and I will
hear about it, have no doubt - the engineering grapevine is like no
other) I'll start dropping their parts back in. Until then, they are,
unfortunately, persona non grata in my designs.

I will also note I have nothing against Maxim - I have stated
repeatedly that they have some great parts, but there is nothing they
make that others do not provide solutions for (albeit slightly
differently, but at original design that's really not a major issue - I
am free to design the most appropriate solution). With that backdrop,
Maxim really needs to go the extra mile. Get stuff on the shelves. Get
stuff in distribution. Get parts out there. Do no-hassle sampling.
(See any of On Semi, TI, AD, National and Freescale for what I mean by
'no-hassle').

When a customer asks about a part, ask about expected usage (you do
already) - if it's 5k/year go ahead and quote it *and back it up with
on-time shipment*. I have some smaller (more specialised really)
designs in production of just about that quantity, but I schedule the
build on them 3 months early as they *do* have Maxim parts in them,
among others who are starting to garner a less than stellar reputation.

They too will feel my wrath by being banished from my BOMs if they
don't shape up. It's nothing personal.
That early build costs me extra money as I have money tied up in
product not yet sold from my shelves.

Do the right things, (and many have given sound advice here) and we'll
start to buy Maxim parts again.

Cheers

PeteS

 

[PeteS]

Hello Pete,

Perhaps so, John, although I find it interesting. I would say that if
Maxim's management gets enraged when criticised, maybe they aren't in
the right job, but that's a separate issue

Yep. It would be like politicians who turn away from angry constituents.
Some did and they got the boot.

On the track of this thread, I can actually quantify the loss to Maxim
on the last 3 designs I have done. I initially designed in a number of
MAX parts - a very nice supervisor , some A-Ds, D-As and a number of
general parts. The total price [to me] of those parts (which I did note
before I left the office) was (for all 3 designs) £53.87

Those units have just passed the 10k systems installed point, and seem
set to go at a rate of 50k / year each for the next 2 years at least [
we currently have orders for 30k systems for the next 6 months or so,
and lots of interest beyond that].

So that's about 100k x £53.87; roughly £5.4 million. It's actually a
little higher, as one particular product sells about 2:1 to the other
parts of the system as a standalone unit, but the MAX parts in there
are lower cost total - my guesstimate of the total is £6.5 million
over a 2.5 years period.

So there you have it, Rebecca - across 3 designs MAX has 'lost'
(because they lost the design) over £5MM and possibly over £6MM,
simply because I don't believe they will supply me when I need it, and
therefore I don't design the parts in. Just thought you might want to
see some numbers from a *low volume* OEM.

The esteemed Joerg wrote:

I could contribute a similar story. But one should suffice and that is
exactly what should land smack dab on the table in the board room.
Oh, I know I am hardly alone, nor even near the volumes of many, but I
wanted Rebecca to have some specific information as ammununition, if
you like, when the execs ask 'Is this really costing us sales'. I
hadn't seen a specific so I gave one

On a separate note to Rebecca : The people who congregate here *do*
share experiences with parts, and I have designed in specific parts
after hearing good reviews from others here I feel I can trust. Please
don't underestimate usenet or the engineering grapevine, which can lead
to good results just as easily as bad ones

I think the average experience level in this thread is probably over 30
years, too - we're (generally at least) very senior designers who have
a lot of sway, and it is [mostly] that group all semi manufacturers
must convince

Cheers

PeteS

 

[PeteS]

While we're on the subject of responsiveness, here's something that
happened to me a little while ago (2 years perhaps).

I had a switcher from Maxim where the design had been done by an
independent contractor. When I got the unit, the response of the
control loop was horrendous, so I took a very close look at the
datasheet.

It turned out that the order of operations in a key formula had not
been properly specified (although it could be derived from all the
other equations). Leaving aside the fact that the independent
contractor should have looked askance at 2 microfarad in a compensation
loop, I figured out the error in the datasheet and sent it to Maxim.

The response was underwhelming, to say the least. Basically 'err - ok,
it's wrong. We'll fix it sometime (maybe)'.

Like all the designers here, I deal with a lot of semiconductor
vendors, and mistakes in datasheets are a fact of life; we know they
are going to happen.
The difference is that when I send information like that to others (the
usual suspects), I get a nicely worded reply *and* the updated
datasheet with the error fixed, and a link to the errata notice for all
the other users of the part.

My point in bringing this up is the attitude of arrogance (which I
alluded to much earlier in this thread) seems to pervade the entire
company. I checked that datasheet out of interest a few days ago at
work and the latest download still had the error. I'll get the actual
part number once I am at the office in the morning. As I noted, that
was about 2 years ago.

One of the key things I look at in a vendor is the datasheets, apart
from delivery. A part you can't get is incredibly expensive. A part
with an incorrect datasheet is likewise expensive, and a committment to
fixing known errors is important to me.

I personally think the attitude of 'we'll get it to you when we feel
like it' is merely another aspect of an attitude at Maxim that has to
be dealt with if they are to stick around. I would like them to do so
as they really have some nice parts, but if they have that attitude
toward datasheets, it's another major hit from my perspective.

Cheers

PeteS

 

[Joerg]

Hello Pete,

While we're on the subject of responsiveness, here's something that
happened to me a little while ago (2 years perhaps).

I had a switcher from Maxim where the design had been done by an
independent contractor. When I got the unit, the response of the
control loop was horrendous, so I took a very close look at the
datasheet.

It turned out that the order of operations in a key formula had not
been properly specified (although it could be derived from all the
other equations). Leaving aside the fact that the independent
contractor should have looked askance at 2 microfarad in a compensation
loop, I figured out the error in the datasheet and sent it to Maxim.

The response was underwhelming, to say the least. Basically 'err - ok,
it's wrong. We'll fix it sometime (maybe)'.

Like all the designers here, I deal with a lot of semiconductor
vendors, and mistakes in datasheets are a fact of life; we know they
are going to happen.
The difference is that when I send information like that to others (the
usual suspects), I get a nicely worded reply *and* the updated
datasheet with the error fixed, and a link to the errata notice for all
the other users of the part.

My point in bringing this up is the attitude of arrogance (which I
alluded to much earlier in this thread) seems to pervade the entire
company. I checked that datasheet out of interest a few days ago at
work and the latest download still had the error. ...

Ouch! Time to write a note to the CEO about that. Then if he doesn't
care we'd know what to do. Did that a few times with other companies and
depending on what the reply was (or whether there was one at all) made
the decision to blacklist or not.