OT: How to sew aspen pad netting for evap coolers?

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

Not drained? Yuck. It would be a cesspool or mosquito larvae and stuff
in there after a few months.

Lots of people don't take care of their homes :> Again, keep in
mind that most coolers, here, are roof-mounted.

Mosquito larvae will be present in just a few days with the
water stagnant (and "accessible"). If I don't get around to
draining our water harvesting containers "soon" after a
heavy rain (of course, you don't NEED the water after a
heavy rain!! :< ), you can see the little critters swimming
around in there!

Where did you get the anodes?

No idea -- it was years ago on the previous cooler.
Haven't gone looking for them for the current cooler
(though I probably *should* -- *if* we put it back in
service)

I recall having to drive around town quite a bit to
round up various parts for the original (poorly maintained)
cooler. I probably stumbled upon them at one of the
supply places.

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,



If you rely on gravity feed to do the draining!

Yeah, sure, but the gravity constant hasn't changed much in the last few
thousand years

... I regulate the
on-time of the drain pump as a function of the on-time of the
recirculate pump (i.e., assuming water is *consumed* at a
constant rate proportional to running time -- no doubt only
good as a zero-th order approximation but monitoring water
*consumption* is hard without instrumentation). And, separately,
maintain a "purge interval" that I use to trigger a flushing
of all the water based on consumption (but only when the cooler
is idle)

I've done the drill a lot: Open unit, put in temporary splash plate,
pull stop, let it all gargle out without shutting the inlet (so that
there is some forced flushing or dirt at the bottom). It always takes
the same amount of time, a valve would be just fine.

I had originally thought of putting a valve in the output of
a *single* pump -- "recirculate vs. divert" -- but opted for
the dual pumps, instead.


Our cooler has the drain area recessed (when viewed from above).
But, the fitting *in* that hole still presents an impediment
to draining (though only a few tablespoons). Biggest issue is
ensuring the cooler is perfectly level as the bottom of the pan
doesn't seem to have much of a draft angle on it...

The mechanical engineering on those things could have been a tad more
smart. Like that draft angle. It ain't rocket science.

Our electronics are indoors. Just wires to the pumps/fan (110 and
220, respectively).

Sure. But it usually takes only one thunderstorm or a big surge and ...
BZZZT.

I think you end up with too much static pressure across any
filter, there. That's a *lot* of air trying to be drawn in
and the filter needs to be reasonably fine. It would also
probably get clogged often (the streets here turn yellow with
the over-abundance of pollen)

Pressure is not an issue I believe. The filter in the central furnace
duct work is much smaller yet the CFM isn't much lower. But if your
pollen load is high you'd need one that either automatically washes or
it'll be another chore on your monthly honey-do list.

Sometimes our whole deck is covered yellow yet there's nothing of that
in the house even when the evap cooler ran all day. Sometimes you can
see the huge brownish puffs waft in from Yosemite. Can be seen from our
living room windows and that sight makes every allergy sufferer cringe.

Here, other utilities (e.g., sewer) key off your metered water
consumption (i.e., they want you to think that all the water you
use ends up going through the sanitary treatment facility -- even
though much of it is consumed, used for irrigation, cooling, etc.).

Same here but they only use winter consumption to set that sewer
quantity. I bet it's the same in your case. You could ask them.

We did the math one year and the airconditioner was costing just
about the same to operate as the cooler had been (both being
new appliances, at the time). Since the allergen issue was a
negative for the cooler, the ACbrrr won that decision!

Unfortunately, the ACbrrr has a hard time giving the same level
of comfort as the cooler in the *dry* months.

I thought you guys live in CA which is basically PGE or SDE monopoly.
Unless you are lucky and have a muni utility. PGE has those stupid
inverse tiers. If you run the A/C you are in tier 3 and higher in no
time and then the kWh price goes to 300% and up. It'll eat you alive.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

Yeah, sure, but the gravity constant hasn't changed much in the last few
thousand years

Wait until you find a bit of aspen shavings clogging your drain!
:> With 22 or 23 sq ft of pad and a 1HP motor dragging air
through it, there was always *something* plugged *somewhere*!
That's why I added the second pump feeding the spider -- so
we were *sure* the pads were always soaked regardless of what
bits of cruft got stuck in the supply/drip lines!

The mechanical engineering on those things could have been a tad more
smart. Like that draft angle. It ain't rocket science.

It's worse than that! Ours has a "dry side" and a "wet side"
(previous cooler had pads on all four sides -- downdraft. This
has pads on *one* side, but still downdraft). Premise is that
the dry side never has to deal with all that water in the
basin (previous cooler had the outlet *surrounded* by the
water basin).

But, if water *gets* into the dry side (e.g., microbursts
pushing rain water in through seams in the access doors),
there are vent holes to prevent it from ponding in the
dry side. Wonderful! Thoughtful!

Except, the water dripping through those vent holes
clings to the underside of the housing and follows
the draft angle -- towards the air outlet! At which
point, it cheerfully follows the ductwork *into* the
interior household ductwork!

I.e., while they thought ahead and recessed the *drain*
connection, they didn't ALSO dimple the vent holes to
prevent the water from following the skin!

Sure. But it usually takes only one thunderstorm or a big surge and ...
BZZZT.

That;s true of anything. You could go the route of many
of the "poor man" controls -- literally switching the line
voltage *in* the "wall unit".

Pressure is not an issue I believe. The filter in the central furnace
duct work is much smaller yet the CFM isn't much lower.

There is a *big* difference between our furnace's air volume output
and the cooler's! Cooler will change the air in the house in 3 or
4 minutes. The furnace takes 4 or 5 times that amount of time.

But if your
pollen load is high you'd need one that either automatically washes or
it'll be another chore on your monthly honey-do list.

Exactly. And with it on the roof, I have no desire to be traipsing
around up there "on demand"!

Sometimes our whole deck is covered yellow yet there's nothing of that
in the house even when the evap cooler ran all day. Sometimes you can
see the huge brownish puffs waft in from Yosemite. Can be seen from our
living room windows and that sight makes every allergy sufferer cringe.


Same here but they only use winter consumption to set that sewer
quantity. I bet it's the same in your case. You could ask them.

Sure. Doesn't help if you are watering citrus trees, though!
They use winter consumption to determine what your needs *should*
be. So, if your summer usage goes considerably higher than that,
you pay a premium.

I thought you guys live in CA which is basically PGE or SDE monopoly.

No; So. AZ.

Unless you are lucky and have a muni utility. PGE has those stupid
inverse tiers. If you run the A/C you are in tier 3 and higher in no
time and then the kWh price goes to 300% and up. It'll eat you alive.

Recall, the primary (comfort) role of the ACbrrr is dehumidification.
In Monsoon, drop the effective dewpoint 10 degrees and things feel
comfortable really fast!

OTOH, in Summer (dry), the effects of humidity are less significant.
It might be 110+ outside but without direct sun exposure, you can
be "comfortable" (not true of with 60 and 70 degree dewpoints like
midwest, northeast, etc.).

And, *far* less work required to remove heat from the air when it's
not also trying to pull the water out!

[I looked at the math once and the figures are alarming! I.e., if
you could figure out how to dehumidify the air *before* it passes
to the ACbrrrr, your energy consumption cuts in half (or so)!]

 

[Don Y]

Hi Art,

Yup. I had 2 smaller pumps on my main cooler, *and* 2 spiders. No

I replaced the "star" shaped spider with a "big loop" that ran around
the perimeter of the cooler (pads on 4 sides). Then, fed it from two
opposing corners (behind check valves).

need for any check valves.

I found that if a pump died, it acted as a "drain" for the system.
Of course, if you feed two *independant* spiders, then you wouldn't
have that problem (since the outputs of the two pumps share
nothing in common)

I always knew when one got plugged as
cooling effectivness went down, but it never got to where both spiders
got plugged at the same time.

Coolers are delightful little *imps*! They keep finding clever ways
of screwing you!

Coming from New England, it took me an entire season to wrap
my head around the very *concept* of a giant HUMIDIFIER somehow
making things *better* in the Summer! And, a fair bit of head
scratching wondering why setting the *control* cooler didn't
always result in the *house* getting cooler! :<

If the allergy issue ever goes away, I would like to explore
algorithms to intelligently trade off cooler vs. ACbrrr based
on observations of current conditions. I.e., if you *know* it
is going to get to 115 today and, given the current dewpoint,
can't expect the cooler to ever bring the indoor temperature
down to 80, then *don't* run the cooler at all -- instead,
concentrate on drying the house out so it will be easier to
keep it comfortable WHEN the temps climb to those levels!

(I'd also like to explore a ground-sourced heat pump as an
option for precooling the air to the ACbrrrr...)

Meanwhile, we'll survive with the ACbrrr (95 outside, today;
75 inside and still haven't turned on the ACbrrrr for this
season)

 

[Joerg]

Ok, folks, I don't want to do a mail order for something that mundane.
Scoped around, ACE and Lowes do not have aspen pads. Home Depot does but
they haven't arrived on the shelves yet and on the phone they couldn't
tell for sure when that'll happen. So much for "modern computerized
planning methods".

Can't believe it. Who _has_ this stuff? Don't stores want to make money
anymore these days?

Some days most of the brick and mortar places might have vanished on
account of lacking competence. And I might not even shed a tear. I mean,
watching the weather and ordering seasonal stuff on time ain't rocket
science.

 

[Joerg]

when every one is just looking at getting the lowest price it's hard
to compete
with stores that is just a computer that forwards the order you make
on a website
to a warehouse that ship it

Thing is, I am not looking for lowest price. Just for plain old local
availability. When a clerk says "Oh yeah, a lot of people have asked for
that" and the store then doesn't carry it in time, to me that's
incompetence at the management level.

I think many stores have the problem that lots people just use them as
demo room
while browsing the internet for the lowest price on their smart phone

add to that places like amazon who seems to avoid sales tax by saying
that computer
is in a state without it

For a lot of stuff people really don't want the hassle of mail order.
Someone has to be there when it arrives, if you missed the carrier three
times then it goes back, it's often a hassle.

But if stores don't carry what people want then there comes a point
where people simply won't go to the stores anymore. Because driving for
an hour only to be told "Sorry, we don't have that" is also a hassle.
Happens to me sometimes when I need a spare part, where I don't even
bother to drive over anymore.

 

[Nico Coesel]

Ok, folks, I don't want to do a mail order for something that mundane.
Scoped around, ACE and Lowes do not have aspen pads. Home Depot does but
they haven't arrived on the shelves yet and on the phone they couldn't
tell for sure when that'll happen. So much for "modern computerized
planning methods".

Can't believe it. Who _has_ this stuff? Don't stores want to make money
anymore these days?

They make more money selling junk like pottery and flimsy garden
chairs.

Some days most of the brick and mortar places might have vanished on
account of lacking competence. And I might not even shed a tear. I mean,
watching the weather and ordering seasonal stuff on time ain't rocket
science.

When I involve myself in home improvement I order most of the stuff
online. Hardware stores don't carry as much as they used to and they
are expensive too. Whatever is too large to order I buy from stores
which supply building contractors. Wood is about 3 times cheaper in
such places.

 

[Joerg]

stock cost money, so they are saving money by not doing pretty much
the
only thing they offer over online stores

And then pretty soon they've "saved" themselves out of a job and the
store must close. Seen it many times.

I always try to get them to deliver it at work there's always some one
there
to receive it

and here if you miss the carrier they leave a note and you go pick it
up
you can have it delivered somewhere else

That is, if there is someone else they can deliver to. In my case I work
from home but have to do business travel. Then either my wife has to
stay home or we'd have to drive to the depot which is at least one hour
round-trip. Or two hours plus in rush hour.

indeed, if the store doesn't have it so you get it right now, it just
as
easy to order online and get it tomorrow

Sometimes it would be so easy to avoid. It can't be hard to
automatically log whenever someone keys a particular term into the
search window, and that it might be smart to carry at that item.

 

[Joerg]

They make more money selling junk like pottery and flimsy garden
chairs.

Probably

When I involve myself in home improvement I order most of the stuff
online. Hardware stores don't carry as much as they used to and they
are expensive too. Whatever is too large to order I buy from stores
which supply building contractors. Wood is about 3 times cheaper in
such places.

Different in the US. Wood is usually more expensive there and they often
don't let you pick through. Picking through is essential if you build
something highly visible such as a deck.

 

[[email protected]]

stock cost money, so they are saving money by not doing pretty much
the
only thing they offer over online stores

You can't sell what you don't have. It's hard to profit on NO SALE.

I always try to get them to deliver it at work there's always some one
there
to receive it

Most of us don't have that option but so far, the shippers have been leaving
most stuff. The little that they don't isn't too hard to pick up at the UPS
place (as long as it's shipped UPS - forget FedEx).

and here if you miss the carrier they leave a note and you go pick it
up
you can have it delivered somewhere else

Sure, as long as the carrier has a location within driving range.

indeed, if the store doesn't have it so you get it right now, it just
as
easy to order online and get it tomorrow

....and cheaper. It's not just the tax. I just ordered a vacuum cleaner from
Amazon for 80% of the best price I could find locally. SWMBO can deal with
the cat hair until Monday. ;-)

 

[[email protected]]

Probably



Different in the US. Wood is usually more expensive there and they often
don't let you pick through. Picking through is essential if you build
something highly visible such as a deck.

Or is intended to be straighter than a pretzel.

 

[Joerg]

Seasonal stuff is like that. The doofi that plan for it may not be local
and they are also at the mercy of the weather. Even in AZ pads were
not always available (even in mid summer!) so I always kept a new set
or 2 on hand as they don't go bad. Same for a spare pump & float valve.
Art

Sure looks like that'll have to be the drill. The millisecond they have
stuff pounce and hoard it in the basement.

The planners at big store chains don't seem to be particularly clever.
Small businesses are typically smarter, like clients with highly
seasonal products who have that down to a science.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Art,

Seasonal stuff is like that. The doofi that plan for it may not be local
and they are also at the mercy of the weather. Even in AZ pads were
not always available (even in mid summer!) so I always kept a new set
or 2 on hand as they don't go bad. Same for a spare pump& float valve.

We've adopted the policy of prepping for next season at the
end of the *current* season. There's always a little
"sprucing up" that still needs to be done at the start of
the next season... but, everything major is already in place
so there are fewer surprises!

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joel,

They avoid collecting sales tax themselves with that line, although the
consumer is legally still supposed to pay it. But I'm pretty sure that
even most church pastors don't bother...

I think if they have a "business presence" in the state, then
they have to (?) collect it. OTOH, I can recall making purchases
from folks like MS that collected the tax even though I was
reasonably sure they did NOT have a presence in the state!

<sheepish grin> I actually remit my "use tax" when I purchase
things for business. I figure I'm writing off the purchases
(and the tax!) and its just not worth getting flagged in an
audit... Anything that I might have to purchase for a client
I *really* try to get the client to purchase. Less recordkeeping
on my part!

(I also stop at stop signs in the wee hours of the morning when
there is no one around -- and avoid "handicapped" parking spaces
even at those similar hours! :> )

This little loophole isn't going to be around for much longer, though,
IME...

I think many states are now making "use tax" more visible in
their tax forms. But, I don;t think many cities/municipalities
have a "hook" for this. I.e., you pay the equivalent *state*
portion of the sales tax on those "untaxed purchases" but not
the city (?)

Some places require you to collect, report and remit "sales tax"
on your "billable hours" (!)

 

[Joerg]

Yes, it certainly is... although sometimes "the management" might not
even be local anymore, unfortunately.


I believe it depends on the neighborhood you live in insofar as whether
or not they'll leave "regular" packages without a signature or not. I
order plenty of stuff from Amazon, and I've *never* had to actually be
around to sign for it (although I've never ordered something like a
big-screen TV from them either; I imagine things work a little
differently there).

What scared me was when UPS plopped down a package with $1700 worth of
analyzer stuff in there and left. Without ringing the door bell.

Another time they didn't feel like walking up to the house and dropped a
package in front of the garden gate where nobody goes much during the
winter except maybe on weekends. Then, it rained, and nobody knew the
package was there until the next weekend. I read them the riot act for
that one.

I've had Amazon Prime ($79/year) for ages now; it gets you no-charge
2-day shipping on most items or $3.99 for overnight shipping. Especially
when we were down there in southern Oregon, you simply couldn't beat
that -- driving to town and back alone was over $5 in gasoline.

Most of the stuff here I order ship-to-store. Walmart and Radio Shack do
that, among others, it's free and you pick it up next time you are there
for another reason.

 

[[email protected]]

Yes, it certainly is... although sometimes "the management" might not
even be local anymore, unfortunately.


I believe it depends on the neighborhood you live in insofar as whether
or not they'll leave "regular" packages without a signature or not. I
order plenty of stuff from Amazon, and I've *never* had to actually be
around to sign for it (although I've never ordered something like a
big-screen TV from them either; I imagine things work a little
differently there).

I've had Amazon Prime ($79/year) for ages now; it gets you no-charge
2-day shipping on most items or $3.99 for overnight shipping.
Especially when we were down there in southern Oregon, you simply
couldn't beat that -- driving to town and back alone was over $5 in
gasoline.

Sure you can beat that. Amazon free delivery only takes three days for most
things (my 600lb table saw was ~5 days) and there is no $79 "membership" fee.

 

[Charlie E.]

What scared me was when UPS plopped down a package with $1700 worth of
analyzer stuff in there and left. Without ringing the door bell.

Another time they didn't feel like walking up to the house and dropped a
package in front of the garden gate where nobody goes much during the
winter except maybe on weekends. Then, it rained, and nobody knew the
package was there until the next weekend. I read them the riot act for
that one.



Most of the stuff here I order ship-to-store. Walmart and Radio Shack do
that, among others, it's free and you pick it up next time you are there
for another reason.

We still get the occasional package or letter dropped off at the wrong
address down the street. Our number - 13887, theirs 68887. The main
part of the street runs E-W, and has 68xxx numbers. Our end swings
N-S, so has 13xxx numbers. If the mailman goes on vacation, his
replacement usually gets it wrong... :-(

We have one $400 talking book player just disappear, never delivered
here OR there!

 

[[email protected]]

They avoid collecting sales tax themselves with that line, although the
consumer is legally still supposed to pay it. But I'm pretty sure that
even most church pastors don't bother...

This little loophole isn't going to be around for much longer, though,
IME...

I don't see how they're going to close it. SCotUS has already come down
against them on it.

 

[Charlie E.]

Hi Joel,



I think if they have a "business presence" in the state, then
they have to (?) collect it. OTOH, I can recall making purchases
from folks like MS that collected the tax even though I was
reasonably sure they did NOT have a presence in the state!

<sheepish grin> I actually remit my "use tax" when I purchase
things for business. I figure I'm writing off the purchases
(and the tax!) and its just not worth getting flagged in an
audit... Anything that I might have to purchase for a client
I *really* try to get the client to purchase. Less recordkeeping
on my part!

(I also stop at stop signs in the wee hours of the morning when
there is no one around -- and avoid "handicapped" parking spaces
even at those similar hours! :> )


I think many states are now making "use tax" more visible in
their tax forms. But, I don;t think many cities/municipalities
have a "hook" for this. I.e., you pay the equivalent *state*
portion of the sales tax on those "untaxed purchases" but not
the city (?)

Some places require you to collect, report and remit "sales tax"
on your "billable hours" (!)

In California, even if you ship out of state, we are still required to
charge CA sales taxes since this is our place of business. yes, we
got that direct from the good folks at the FTB (twice!)

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Joel,



I think if they have a "business presence" in the state, then
they have to (?) collect it. OTOH, I can recall making purchases
from folks like MS that collected the tax even though I was
reasonably sure they did NOT have a presence in the state!

I think you'll find that MS has a presence in every state.

<sheepish grin> I actually remit my "use tax" when I purchase
things for business. I figure I'm writing off the purchases
(and the tax!) and its just not worth getting flagged in an
audit... Anything that I might have to purchase for a client
I *really* try to get the client to purchase. Less recordkeeping
on my part!

Good idea (both).

(I also stop at stop signs in the wee hours of the morning when
there is no one around -- and avoid "handicapped" parking spaces
even at those similar hours! :> )

It's a good habit to get into. It saves some "revenue enhancement" issues at
other times, too.

I think many states are now making "use tax" more visible in
their tax forms. But, I don;t think many cities/municipalities
have a "hook" for this. I.e., you pay the equivalent *state*
portion of the sales tax on those "untaxed purchases" but not
the city (?)

A lot of things are "visible" and just as easily ignored.

Some places require you to collect, report and remit "sales tax"
on your "billable hours" (!)

Sure, why should "services" be exempt from the tax man?