Practicing without a license

[Spehro Pefhany]

Closed shop?

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/03/964781/citizen-activist-grates-on-state.html

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Quick summary: Guy and his neighbors think that a street widening will require
adding traffic lights, presents "sophisticated analysis" arguing this case,
that disagrees with DOT's own engineer who says traffic lights aren't
necessary. DOT engineer responds by claiming the guy has committed a
misdemeanor, "Practicing engineering without a license."

Nice quote: "...there is a potential for violation if DOT and the public were
misled by "engineering-quality work"- even if the authors did not claim to be
engineers."

Wow. There's something very wrong going on at the North Carolina DOT!

---Joel

Strikes me that a licensed engineer educated/experienced primarily in
another discipline might be at real risk.

 

[tm]

It strikes me that anyone answering questions in this group who's not a PE
might be at real risk.

I can see the value of the whole PE thing -- but it can go over the edge
into absurdity pretty damned easily.

They should take the report and pay a PE to review and sign off on it and
re-submit. The goobers have already said it is good quality work.


tm

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

---
In my opinion, the DOT's chief traffic engineer, Lacy, is miffed
because the quality of Cox's work is superior and is capable of
causing Cox's position to have to be defended, something petty tyrants
can't stand.

Of course Lacy would have loved for Cox's work to have been slipshod,
in which case he could easily have dismissed it as being unimportant,
but no, he's confronted by someone who knows what he's talking about,
and makes him feel threatened.

In retaliation, then, Lacy goes after the source of the threat,
intending to vilify him with what are, in truth, nonsense accusations.

This is really nothing more than an outrageous example of a government
employee trying to entice government to deny a citizen his right to
free speech.

Moreover, since Cox wasn't trying to gain monetarily from the sale of
his work and since he presented his work to an engineer in the public
sector, for evaluation, the charge of pretending to be an engineer by
virtue of being capable of doing engineering quality work is
ridiculous.

A suitable conclusion to this matter would be, in my opinion, that any
investigation of Cox be dropped, that his work be given an evaluation
by a neutral party competent in the relevant discipline, and that Lacy
be given disciplinary action in the form of a couple of days off
without pay and a note in his file.

A complaint of professional misconduct perhaps could be entered
against him, although NC rules appear to only specifically rule out
malicious behavior towards fellow engineers and land surveyors.

License number 024450:
https://www.membersbase.com/ncbels-vs/public/dosearchdb.asp?024450

 

[Raveninghorde]

Strikes me that a licensed engineer educated/experienced primarily in
another discipline might be at real risk.

Help a poor old English engineer. We don't need a licence to
engineer. Is this a NC thing or does it apply to the whole USA?

 

[Sylvia Else]

Closed shop?

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/03/964781/citizen-activist-grates-on-state.html

Well, unless that part of the USA has some very strange laws indeed
(which is of course possible), the charge of practicing engineering
without a licence will be laughed out of court.

Sylvia.

 

[David Lesher]

Nice quote: "...there is a potential for violation if DOT and the public were
misled by "engineering-quality work"- even if the authors did not claim to be
engineers."

Wow. There's something very wrong going on at the North Carolina DOT!

Not, DOT is being SOP bureaucritters; but the licensing board statements
send a shiver down my spine. The chairman better learn the law which
I bet is not what he thinks.

 

[PeterD]

Quick summary: Guy and his neighbors think that a street widening will require
adding traffic lights, presents "sophisticated analysis" arguing this case,
that disagrees with DOT's own engineer who says traffic lights aren't
necessary. DOT engineer responds by claiming the guy has committed a
misdemeanor, "Practicing engineering without a license."

Nice quote: "...there is a potential for violation if DOT and the public were
misled by "engineering-quality work"- even if the authors did not claim to be
engineers."

Wow. There's something very wrong going on at the North Carolina DOT!

---Joel

It is a case of classic corruption by hired (incompentent) civil
servants. The DOT minion who complained was upset because I suspect
the work done by the public was much better than his (probably largly
pencil whipped, and likely substandard) work.

 

[PeterD]

...that Lacy
be given disciplinary action in the form of a couple of days off
without pay and a note in his file.

Lacy should be given a couple of thousand days off without pay, and
his file shredded. And blocked from receiving unemployment benefits
too...

 

[Martin Brown]

I think it is more a problem with US lawyers. Engineering quality work
stands on its merits - complaining that the person wasn't qualified to
do it has no bearing on whether or not the analysis is correct.

Actually you do if you are engineering large scale stuff mechanical,
production, chemical and civil engineering all have their own UK
institutions and/or want to work internationally. IEE is (now was) one
of the UK's electronics engineering institutions - but they have
rebranded yet again to "Improve the public image of engineering"

http://www.theiet.org/

You need a professional engineering license to offer engineering
services for buildings and bridges and such -- i.e., you aren't supposed
to specify the wire size for a 500 horsepower motor unless you've got a
professional engineer's license.

I think you have the same thing over there, but I don't know what it's
called (Registered Engineer? Chartered Engineer?)

Chartered Engineer, and EurIng in Europe. You get a nice registration
number and tax deductible annual fees as well as a magazine and in the
case of my professional body some useful discounts on PII, training and
software. Also monthly meetings and specialist groups if you go to them.
You can buy an optional certificate to hang on the wall if you are into
that sort of thing.

The Royal Society for Chemistry has by far the best PR department of the
UK professional science and engineering institutions. They came up with
the "Hang on a minute lads - I have a great idea" challenge from the end
of the original "Italian Job" film. Strictly a physics problem to move
the gold back up the bus without falling of the edge of a cliff.

http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2008/ItalianJob.asp

Pity the IOP didn't think of it

Engineering boards sometimes take that and run a bit too far with it --
there was a case in Oregon a few years ago where they cracked down on
some maid service for calling themselves "cleaning engineers" or some such.

In the UK *all* engineering has the unfortunate public image of a grease
monkey covered in oil and grime with a spanner under some rust bucket
car. That is why all the kids want to do "Meeja Studdis" (sic).

Engineer as a strict professional term in the UK isn't worth the effort
of protecting. Someone signing off designs for safety critical kit,
buildings or bridges had better have the right paper qualifications
though - you really don't want them falling down.

Germany and Japan have a much higher respect for their engineers and
scientists and correspondingly stronger manufacturing based economies.
We have far too many MBAs and bean counters in senior positions and it
creates the problems that JL is describing in a parallel thread.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Ecnerwal]

Nice quote: "...there is a potential for violation if DOT and the public

were
misled by "engineering-quality work"- even if the authors did not claim to
be engineers."

Speaking as an Engineering school graduate in a field that does not
normally have EIT (engineering in training) or PE/LPE (professional
engineer, licensed professional engineer) this business is a load of
crap and intimidation that should get laughed out of court.

Unless and until you misrepresent yourself as an EIT/PE/LPE they haven't
got a leg to stand on, no matter what work you do. If you were a PE in
EE and did a traffic study, I doubt you'd be putting your EE seal on the
thing, and if you did, you still wouldn't be claiming to be a traffic
(probably civil) engineer. This case didn't even go to that level. If
you took the job on for money there might be an issue.

I make personal use of a transit and have Breed and Hosmer's delightful
(if not remotely the recent edition) books - and so long as I don't
claim to be a licensed surveyor or civil engineer, there ain't a damn
thing anyone can do about it, because I'm not misrepresenting myself or
selling my services to anyone. Those folks all use total stations and/or
differential GPS now anyway (I've had the transit on long-term loan for
going on 15 years now, and don't expect to ever have the guy I borrowed
it from ask for it back, though I remind him occasionally that I have
it. He wasn't using it anymore.)

If this isn't laughed out of court, the court is corrupt.

 

[Jamie]

Closed shop?

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/03/964781/citizen-activist-grates-on-state.html

Big deal, reports mean nothing and they are idiots to think that is
going to shake any one up. It's those that sign off on it that take
responsibility..

Just another idiot using the twisted legal system to get their
way. I

Does this mean that soon, I'll need a license to fart in public, get
fined because I am not license to admit a minimum level of gaseous
compounds.

I think the licensing system is becoming a joke in many aspects, just
a tool for other non qualified and Gov. agencies to benefit from.


Jamie

 

[Jamie]

Quick summary: Guy and his neighbors think that a street widening will
require adding traffic lights, presents "sophisticated analysis" arguing
this case, that disagrees with DOT's own engineer who says traffic
lights aren't necessary. DOT engineer responds by claiming the guy has
committed a misdemeanor, "Practicing engineering without a license."

Nice quote: "...there is a potential for violation if DOT and the public
were misled by "engineering-quality work"- even if the authors did not
claim to be engineers."

Wow. There's something very wrong going on at the North Carolina DOT!

These so called Engineers (license if you will) should take note of
this problem. It's been my experience that a large some of engineers in
many fields, gain their idea's and tips from those that actually do the
work in the field. We call them shoulder educated.

Maybe the wrong people are being licensed or certified?

Jamie

 

[Jamie]

Help a poor old English engineer. We don't need a licence to
engineer. Is this a NC thing or does it apply to the whole USA?

It only applies to those that are greedy and get their feelings hurt
by those that are better at it, mostly.

Which reminds me. Not too long ago we fired a contractor that comes in
occasionally, jobs that our company can't be hassled with by having
their own people being tied up in. This contractor made a comment a few
times how it was illegal for any one in our place to perform the type of
work we do and should be performed only by those like himself. We do
have E1's employed, even though we don't use their abilities much (not
needed).

Greed and throat cutting can really deteriorate quality of work and
advancement.

 

[Rich Grise]

Big deal, reports mean nothing and they are idiots to think that is
going to shake any one up. It's those that sign off on it that take
responsibility..

Just another idiot using the twisted legal system to get their
way. I

Does this mean that soon, I'll need a license to fart in public, get
fined because I am not license to admit a minimum level of gaseous
compounds.

I think the licensing system is becoming a joke in many aspects, just
a tool for other non qualified and Gov. agencies to benefit from.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/w...ed-as-government-bans-farting-86908-22899029/

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

It strikes me that anyone answering questions in this group who's not a
PE might be at real risk.

I can see the value of the whole PE thing -- but it can go over the edge
into absurdity pretty damned easily.

Well, at least, thank DAWG, there's no law against calling oneself an
"Engineering Consultant." >:->

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

after reading a comment like that from a guy that lives in Arizona no
less, I'm surprised that no one else here has called him on it...

Oh, it's been well-known around here for some time that JT is one of
those neocons whose first response to anything he doesn't like is murder.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Martin Brown]

What we should complain about is the asshole who scribed that web
site.
So, I click the link above, and here's what I get:

Internet Explorer cannot open the Internet site
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/03/964781/dtizen-activist-grates-on-state.html.
Operation aborted

Of course, I can clearly see most of the web site in the background
(behind this stupid Windows error message).
I click OK (the only option), and Windows then displays a totally
blank screen with a canned message asking me if I would like for it to
diagnose my "connection" problem.

What misconfigured collection of antique dross are your running it on?

IE8 on Vista opens it without any complaints here. Much as I am loathe
to defend or support MickeySoft this website does work with IE.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[TheGlimmerMan]

In an area the cops have already written off...

Which is EXACTLY what make THE PIGS the PROBLEM.

The complacent fucktards draw a check, and do NOTHING!

When the shit hits the fan, they will be so fucking stupid (already
are) that they will call YOU and anyone else a criminal, because they are
too goddamned stupid to pinpoint and CAPTURE those that really are.

 

[josephkk]

Speaking as an Engineering school graduate in a field that does not
normally have EIT (engineering in training) or PE/LPE (professional
engineer, licensed professional engineer) this business is a load of
crap and intimidation that should get laughed out of court.

Unless and until you misrepresent yourself as an EIT/PE/LPE they haven't
got a leg to stand on, no matter what work you do. If you were a PE in
EE and did a traffic study, I doubt you'd be putting your EE seal on the
thing, and if you did, you still wouldn't be claiming to be a traffic
(probably civil) engineer. This case didn't even go to that level. If
you took the job on for money there might be an issue.

I make personal use of a transit and have Breed and Hosmer's delightful
(if not remotely the recent edition) books - and so long as I don't
claim to be a licensed surveyor or civil engineer, there ain't a damn
thing anyone can do about it, because I'm not misrepresenting myself or
selling my services to anyone. Those folks all use total stations and/or
differential GPS now anyway (I've had the transit on long-term loan for
going on 15 years now, and don't expect to ever have the guy I borrowed
it from ask for it back, though I remind him occasionally that I have
it. He wasn't using it anymore.)

If this isn't laughed out of court, the court is corrupt.

Unless the Board makes a ridiculous decision against the residential group
it will never go to court, the Board has the authority to enforce its
decisions short of imposing jail time.

That said, the City (and DOT) handled this piss poorly.