Smartmeter: Anyone knows how to get detailed info on them?

[Joerg]

I already have that covered... did you not notice ?

No, didn't. Earlier this month you hinted that you might have to just
walk away from your home because more is owed than worth, 2nd post from
bottom:

http://www.edaboard.co.uk/ot-white-house-secretly-passes-currency-controls-t456809.html

No time, too busy. And rabbits I must address first

Wild rabbits now, too?

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,


Yeah, but these didn't exist 25 years ago. :>

Those were the days when we had to do this stuff analog. Although, 20
year ago we did that with DSPs from AD. AD2105 if I remember right, and
I think they were under 10 bucks even then. Though for a meter that a
lot of dough.

I meant the data collection aspects. ToU and Demand are a few
lines of code...

_If_ done right. It would not be cool if due to some glitch all that
night time washing, drying and dishwashing would be billed at peak rate.

Yup. Try designing for the gaming industry! :> There, the
"interference" is calculated, deliberate and considerably more
that "typical" (e.g., folks sticking antennae *up* the payout
chutes)


Yup. Though much of it really is "common sense" -- once someone
*else* explains it to you! :>

That's where universities are seriously lacking these days, and kids
don't build stuff anymore.

 

[Joerg]

They can turn off the power house by house. Disaster in my opinion
since computers use software and all software has bugs.

Since I got a smart meter, I've have two power interruptions in I
guess 5 months (I don't recall when it got installed). I could go
years without a glitch before the meter was installed.

I installed a double conversion UPS. It reports small outages about
every 2 months.

If that's happening at a lot of other places they've really got to put a
stop order on installations. That's what someone demanded on TV
yesterday, and I think he had a point there.

 

[sj]

Some basic information on the meters can be found here...
http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/metering/en/utility_revenue_meters/index.htm

There is a pdf link for a fact sheet about the I-210+ meter near the
bottom of that page. As D Yuniskis mentioned, the utility customer has
some options. The changing LCD display reflects these choices. On this
meter, the top big display field seems to be the elapsed kWh measurement
(mostly). The lower left on this one changes: current kW, voltage, and
the letters Adl. I have no idea what Adl means; there is no number on
the bottom then, just Adl. When the voltage is displayed on the bottom,
the top goes to all 8's with a minus sign. So that 888 thing seems to be
just some artifact of the voltage display configuration. There's a
little bar graph at the right middle too. It may be a crude differential
indication -- power use up or down. Seems the lower left can indicate
power direction, like if the customer has solar panels and can pump back
power to the grid.

In the above link page, if you select AMR meters from the left column,
it takes you to a page of options the utility can choose for phoning
home. This meter seems to have the SSL wireless link at the bottom of
the page. There is another pdf fact sheet. Seems it uses 900 MHz
wireless. Later I may run a wireless sniffer to see if I can find new
IPs in the neighborhood.

The gas meter got a new attachment too. The display on that is an
old-school set of geared dials, but apparently it has wirless link too.

So, not much information, but a little bit of help about what is in
there.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi Joerg,

Those were the days when we had to do this stuff analog. Although, 20
year ago we did that with DSPs from AD. AD2105 if I remember right, and
I think they were under 10 bucks even then. Though for a meter that a
lot of dough.

We targeted $30 DM+DL. Which, at the time, didn't seem
like a lot. OTOH, when you are pricing things in quantities
of 10M, it gets to the point where you're just buying plastic! :>

I suspect current meters are in the $30 - $50 range as they
typically also include a radio, etc. Installed (replaced),
it's probably $100 - $150.

I suspect they are probably in the "fraction of a percent"
accuracy range -- "if all goes well".

_If_ done right. It would not be cool if due to some glitch all that
night time washing, drying and dishwashing would be billed at peak rate.

I suspect that modern meters are considerably more vulnerable
as they *have* communication pathways into them (firmware
upgrade, etc.) beyond just the "configuration port". I
think this would be great to hack as you *know* there are
undoubtedly some serious security flaws there to be exploited.

If *everyone* has a meter, that's a lot of "motivation" :>

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi Joerg,

That remains to be seen and could become part of a state government
investigation. Or hopefully will.

With still more of The Clueless doing the poking. And, of
course, a fair bit of grandstanding.

I had tried that. Their search engine doesn't work well. If you key in
smartmeter or "smart meter" there's a bazillion hits containing lots of
document unrelated to the topic. Why can't IT folks learn from Digikey
how to do it right? Although they did seem to have screwed up the order
entry lately.

A lot of the EPRI material is "members only" (though, much
of it isn't worth the paper its printed on :> ). But, you
might be able to sort out applicable ANSI or NEMA standards
that could give you an idea of how they characterize the
load they are trying to measure, etc.

 

[[email protected]]

Saw a good bumper sticker today.

Obamanomics: Trickle up Poverty

The other EE in the company got his picture in the local paper holding that
sign in the 4/15 tea party, here.

 

[David L. Jones]

Hello,

Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us
that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether
we want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual
the utility is stone-walling:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541

Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics
design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to
find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics &
board layouts of those things?

BTW, we used to have a meter with LCD readout and all until years ago.
It eventually failed, maybe because it gets hit by the full morning
sun. The utility replaced it with, tada, a classic mechanical meter.
Probably because those simply work ...

I wonder what happens if the new gadget completely fails for, err, some
mysterious reason... Do you get your electrons for free until they can
replace it?

Dave.

 

[sj]

I wonder what happens if the new gadget completely fails for, err, some
mysterious reason... Do you get your electrons for free until they can
replace it?

Dave.

From bits of information I have heard in the media about California PG&E
complaints, some of the meters have failed to record and the PG&E
solution is to estimate the bill from previous history. I don't have any
confirmation link to cite.

 

[sj]

http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_244ff4dc-7f2b-5a8b-96d2-dc14c17681bf.html

ENERGY: Experts hack new power meters
Utilities installing networked devices on homes

From the pictures in that article and mention of the meter vendor, I see
that San Diego is using different meters from Northern California
utilities.

I guess that's a good thing?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

I dunno, but I have been calculating...
It is still not economical, but for 1000 Euro I have a good 2 kW generator...
With all that modern 'electronic' grid stuff coming...
Any kid with a PC and a wireless board can take out a countries electricity.
A generator is good thing to have
Those meters are not here yet,
There is a law being proposed that people can refuse to have those.

Seems like Germany already has such a law. Are these laws motivated by
privacy issues or more mundane concerns about accuracy or whatever?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[PeterD]

well,you can,but the only practical solution is against the law.


consider what Comrade Obama wants to do with coal-fueled electric
power,which is ~50% of US electric supply;Cap-n-Trade would dramatically
raise electric rates.(he's SAID he wants to bankrupt the coal industry..)

You misunderstood Obama's statement: What he said was he wants to
bankrupt the american people.

then consider that Comrade Obama -says- he supports nuclear power...as long
as there's safe storage for the wastes...then turns around and kills Yucca
Mountain Repository and insitutes a NEW site search that will take many
years to complete,so actual construction of a safe storage site will be a
couple of DECADES away,and nuclear plants will not go forward.
So,Comrade Obama has effectively BLOCKED new nuclear plants.
Solar and wind will NOT make up the difference,nor will biofuels.

End result is much higher electric rates,brownouts and blackouts,and/or a
lowering of lifestyles.Industry will suffer,jobs will suffer.
It also fits right in with his desire for high gasoline prices.
(the lowering of your lifestyle)
Our economy is closely tied to energy prices.

That's Comrade Obama's "social justice".
He's out to drag us all down to the "poor's" level.

And then taxes will rise, so that Obama's socialist adjenda can be
played out, giving your wealth (as megar is it is...) to others who
don't want to put in the effort.

One thing is important... The old saying "He who does not know history
is doomed to repeat it" applies here.

 

[Joerg]

Some basic information on the meters can be found here...
http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/metering/en/utility_revenue_meters/index.htm

In this link I see a rendering that looks like an electrolytic in the
base assembly:

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/metering/en/downloads/i_210_plus.pdf

I hope I am wrong about that ...

There is a pdf link for a fact sheet about the I-210+ meter near the
bottom of that page. As D Yuniskis mentioned, the utility customer has
some options. The changing LCD display reflects these choices. On this
meter, the top big display field seems to be the elapsed kWh measurement
(mostly). The lower left on this one changes: current kW, voltage, and
the letters Adl. I have no idea what Adl means; there is no number on
the bottom then, just Adl. When the voltage is displayed on the bottom,
the top goes to all 8's with a minus sign. So that 888 thing seems to be
just some artifact of the voltage display configuration. ...

The question would be, artifact because the SW guy forgot, folks in the
design review didn't notice or because it fell through the cracks when
writing the spec sheet?

... There's a
little bar graph at the right middle too. It may be a crude differential
indication -- power use up or down. Seems the lower left can indicate
power direction, like if the customer has solar panels and can pump back
power to the grid.

In the above link page, if you select AMR meters from the left column,
it takes you to a page of options the utility can choose for phoning
home. This meter seems to have the SSL wireless link at the bottom of
the page. There is another pdf fact sheet. Seems it uses 900 MHz
wireless. Later I may run a wireless sniffer to see if I can find new
IPs in the neighborhood.

The gas meter got a new attachment too. The display on that is an
old-school set of geared dials, but apparently it has wirless link too.

So, not much information, but a little bit of help about what is in
there.

Thanks. Piece by piece is the only way to figure this stuff out. Maybe
one day a schematic leaks out somewhere. Not to hack anything but to
understand how they work, and to be prepared in case of gross overcharges.

[...]

 

[Joerg]

From bits of information I have heard in the media about California PG&E
complaints, some of the meters have failed to record and the PG&E
solution is to estimate the bill from previous history. I don't have any
confirmation link to cite.

But there were people who claimed the bill was 3x the previous year's or
more. That can't be an estimate. Also, on the bill it should clearly say
"estimated".

 

[Joerg]

Q concerning those old meters; they have been around for like ages.
Are they so reliable that they never show up in surplus shops or does
Piggie sledgehammer them?

I've never heard of one breaking. Only electronic ones that broke. Also,
they'd have to somehow leak out of the utility's materials management
system to end up in surplus stores.

 

[Charlie E.]

But there were people who claimed the bill was 3x the previous year's or
more. That can't be an estimate. Also, on the bill it should clearly say
"estimated".

Even with mechanical meters they can get away with 'estimating' your
usage!

Back in Irvine, it apparently was the practice to actually read the
meters only every other month. We could tell, because every other
month we would get hit by large 'overuse' charges, as they 'estimated'
that we would have used a lot more electricity, and gone into the high
tariff rates, and then the next month we would be barely out of
baseline. A couple of times I got the bill, looked at what they said
the meter read, went out and LOOKED at my meter, and realized that I
wasn't there yet a week after they had supposedly read the meter.

And no, they never put on there 'ESTIMATED'...

Charlie

 

[Joerg]

Even with mechanical meters they can get away with 'estimating' your
usage!

Back in Irvine, it apparently was the practice to actually read the
meters only every other month. We could tell, because every other
month we would get hit by large 'overuse' charges, as they 'estimated'
that we would have used a lot more electricity, and gone into the high
tariff rates, and then the next month we would be barely out of
baseline. A couple of times I got the bill, looked at what they said
the meter read, went out and LOOKED at my meter, and realized that I
wasn't there yet a week after they had supposedly read the meter.

And no, they never put on there 'ESTIMATED'...

That would warrant a report to the PUC, if needed also some media exposure.

 

[Joerg]

Jim Thompson wrote: [snip]

I think we (those of us on the productive end of the stick) will
prevail. If not, I have my escape plan. I would suggest everyone
else develop the same.

Just remember, past a certain age (which you have exceeded ...) NZ
requires immigrants to bring a major amount of money into the country.
Probably so they have some assurance that the new folks won't plop into
the welfare/health system.

I was just struck by an amusing thought: I can easily get the
equivalent of a green card in NZ... I'm already doing business there.

A work visa is not a green card, usually. Same in the US. If you get a
national interest waiver it's smooth sail (after a wait of several year,
that is ...), else you'll probably have to show the dough.

And you can collect your Social Security and Medicare while living in
another country. With no "earned income" in the US, that would be
untaxed. Earnings in NZ would be taxed in NZ, but NZ is currently
giving grants for high-tech start-ups

Not so. Read up on the tax code. There is an exemption of somewhere
around $80k. Beyond that the IRS wants its cut, unless you renounce your
citizenship. Oh, and you would no longer be accountable to a president
but to her majesty

They went away... probably the sudden jump to 92°F. But they'll
probably be back... global cooling predicted by the weekend

But the rabbits are getting gross... wander thru the backyard
unperturbed by my presence... they only scatter when I get close :-(

The biggest prowlers of that sort out here are deer. And you can't mess
with the buck. One guy did and the buck didn't let him win. Then the
occasional mountain lion or bear.

 

[Joerg]

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
I think we (those of us on the productive end of the stick) will
prevail. If not, I have my escape plan. I would suggest everyone
else develop the same.

Just remember, past a certain age (which you have exceeded ...) NZ
requires immigrants to bring a major amount of money into the country.
Probably so they have some assurance that the new folks won't plop into
the welfare/health system.
I was just struck by an amusing thought: I can easily get the
equivalent of a green card in NZ... I'm already doing business there.

A work visa is not a green card, usually. Same in the US. If you get a
national interest waiver it's smooth sail (after a wait of several year,
that is ...), else you'll probably have to show the dough.

And you can collect your Social Security and Medicare while living in
another country. With no "earned income" in the US, that would be
untaxed. Earnings in NZ would be taxed in NZ, but NZ is currently
giving grants for high-tech start-ups

Not if it's earned outside the country AND you reside outside the
country.

I believe you are wrong about that but it looks like they have the
exemption amount now inflation-indexed:

http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome.htm

Also, quote: "Self-employed taxpayers have additional tax
considerations. The foreign earned income exclusion will reduce your
regular tax liability, but not your self employment tax."

I suggest to consult a good tax profesional who knows foreign stuff
before making any decisions.

[...]

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
I think we (those of us on the productive end of the stick) will
prevail. If not, I have my escape plan. I would suggest everyone
else develop the same.

Just remember, past a certain age (which you have exceeded ...) NZ
requires immigrants to bring a major amount of money into the country.
Probably so they have some assurance that the new folks won't plop into
the welfare/health system.

I was just struck by an amusing thought: I can easily get the
equivalent of a green card in NZ... I'm already doing business there.

A work visa is not a green card, usually. Same in the US. If you get a
national interest waiver it's smooth sail (after a wait of several year,
that is ...), else you'll probably have to show the dough.

And you can collect your Social Security and Medicare while living in
another country. With no "earned income" in the US, that would be
untaxed. Earnings in NZ would be taxed in NZ, but NZ is currently
giving grants for high-tech start-ups

Not if it's earned outside the country AND you reside outside the
country.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97324,00.html

"Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of
where you reside"

The US is one of very few countries that does this.

Expatriation is possible, but not a pleasant thought at all:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html

Basically, if you're well established, they've pretty much 'got' you
legally.