Water for Gas conversion hoax/scam?

[neon]

there is a saying there is a sucker born every day. If you bother to read all the claims of cadgets to inprove efficiency on cars if you bother to add all those efficiency invariably you come up with 120%. while it is true DETROIT failos us in the past there are reasons for that too. WE wanted big cars big engines the hell with the gas it was cheap. we are are 4% of the population and use 40% of gas. water for gas it is possible like solar like hydrogen. eletric all possible the inplementation is realy for star trek guys not you and me for $60

 

[Eeyore]

A friend just showed me an instruction package for a conversion kit to
allow a car engine to run on hydrogen and oxygen extracted from water. He
paid about $60 for the privilege of downloading and printing out over 100
pages of text and crude drawings and schematics. I looked through it, and
it appears to be a scam, but I was unable to find any serious discussion
on-line (nothing on snopes) to indicate that it cannot possibly work as it
claims. My arguments are as follows:

1. It should require at least as much energy to dissociate the hydrogen and
oxygen atoms from water as could be regained by combustion, so unless the
gases are generated from the power grid and then used in the vehicle, the
energy ultimately must come from the gasoline engine.

2. The instructions call for a carburetor conversion kit. My last vehicle
with a carburetor was a 1986 model. I do not see how the introduction of a
hydrogen/oxygen mixture to the manifold can work with a fuel-injected
system, especially when it is controlled by a computer as most vehicles
have had since about 1995.

3. The electronic circuits you are expected to build are designed with old
technology parts, such as a 555 timer, 2N3055 transistor, CD4069, LM741,
etc, and operate at frequencies from about 10 Hz to 350 kHz, with no
instruction on PCB layout. These circuits are basically variable frequency
PWM generators, with one set of pulses to electrodes in the water, and
another set that go to a toroidal transformer.

4. The toroidal transformer has a ferrite core and is to be hand wound with
about 2000 turns of special teflon-coated magnet wire. Its purpose, as I
understand it, is to somehow use magnetism to align the water molecules and
dissociate the hydrogen and oxygen.

5. There is also some reference to a "water capacitor", whatever that is,
and somehow this 12 VDC circuit generates thousands of volts.

6. The instructions are so extensive and complicated, and the illustrations
are so poor, that I cannot imagine anyone actually going through all the
steps and completing the project successfully. That is also a convenient
way to make it always possible to tell someone they disn't follow the
instructions exactly, if the thing doesn't work.

7. As far as I can tell, there is no way to regulate the pressure of the
H-O mixture (also known as Browns Gas), or to maintain a sufficient reserve
for long-term power, and I cannot imagine a small generator like this being
capable of providing enough gas continuously for automotive use. If it
could, and the source of the power for hydrogen generation is the battery,
I'm sure it would be overloaded or quickly discharged.

I thought I saw a post about this sometime back, but all I found was an
"ad" in SEB.

My friend is going to try to get his money back through his credit card
company. I doubt if he will have any success at that. He would probably
have to first invest the time and materials to actually build the device,
and then (if he could prove he did everything exactly right), maybe he
could have a case. But he paid for an instruction manual, and he got one.

Can't the FTC shut down these scammers ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

He also paid for an instructive lesson in early detection of
snake-oil, and I'd say that he probably got his money's worth.

He doesn't also use Monster cables for his hi-fi does he ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Even my old Citroen (pre-WWII engine design) yielded 50mpg.

Yes but was it the ~ 400 or 600cc version ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Joerg

Neither can survive a collision with a dog ;-)

You're wrong there. Those bumpers were astonishingly solid.

Graham

 

[Joerg]

Yes but was it the ~ 400 or 600cc version ?

400cc four-stroke, 16 horse, 50mpg regular unleaded fuel.

The 600cc version was called Krafterpel in German, translates to "Power
Gander".

 

[Joerg]

You're wrong there. Those bumpers were astonishingly solid.

True. I got hit from behind by an older model Audi 80. A guy ran a red
light, this old Citroen of mine stopped on a dime but the car behind me
didn't. Ka-crunch. Glas flying, coolant oozing out, all from the other
car. I only had a scratched bumper (metal) and a dented fender. The guy
who ran the red light was disabled so I told him I'd take care of my car
and the guy in the Audi realized he hadn't kept a safe distance so he
didn't file a claim either. Took 30 minutes to repair with a round
mallet, including fender removal and mounting. Plus 10 minutes of
painting (needed it anyway).

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

Can't the FTC shut down these scammers ?

Graham

I don't think a government agency can just shut down someone who makes
dubious claims about a product, especially when it it consists of
instructions that are open to interpretation, and materials that you must
purchase. The claims can be written in such a way that they are hard to
disprove, and the amount of money spent is so small in proportion to what
you must spend in time and materials to build the device, that it just
isn't worth it. You might be able to win a judgment in small claims court,
but then you would have to take other measures to collect. For $60? Nah...

At this time I am looking for a new mattress or bed that will help my
chronic back problems. A friend recommended the sleep number bed, which is
heavily advertised on TV. My chiropractor gave me a brochure on a
"chiromatic" bed. And I did some on-line research, which yielded a lot of
similar websites for a SAT or SAM self-adjusting air bed, which looked
promising until I read some negative opinions on epinions.com. There seems
to be an actual lawsuit against at least one of the many manifestations of
what appear to be really one company. In this case, they are selling an
actual product, at over $1000, and they have claims of it being a durable
medical device, so there is a bit more at stake there.

But even though the lawsuit was filed several years ago, the company is
still pushing the same product, and it is a little difficult to be sure
about the pros and cons. But I think a big clue here is that there are few,
if any, moderate reviews. I think the over the top positive reviews are
written by the owner of the company and his proxies, while the horrible
negative stories are probably true.

Paul