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How much/what electrical danger performing on a covered stage during rain?

S

Scott Dorsey

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think its exciting also odd that it took 100 years to bring it to market
myself I will not buy or sell any more traditional wireless mics until this
bandwidth stuff settles
and I am down to just 6 in my inventory
but I hope to get some time to talk to the AT guys at AES

My worry is that with the spread spectrum systems, it's going to be much
harder to track down actual interference issues. The system degrades
very slowly as the channel bit rate goes down, until all of a sudden all
hell breaks loose and then where are you?

I am thinking the spread spectrum systems will be a godsend for smaller
installations, but they will be a nightmare for large events. With these
systems, you have to think about the devices adding broadband noise to a
wide channel... you can stack one on top of another on the same band, until
the overall noise floor of the wide channel reaches a certain point, and
then everything collapses.

And if something goes wrong you can't just pull up the spectrum analyzer
and pinpoint the offending source.

It's going to be interesting, but we're going to need new tools for
coordination and analysis before we can use them at big events, and
we don't have those tools yet. But creating those tools might be a
big moneymaker for someone.

The military has been doing this stuff since the seventies; it is a very
effective way to hide sources. As a consequence, they have put a lot of
time and effort at identifying and analyzing them... but a lot of that info
isn't public right now.
--scott
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
BobG said:
The metal screen on an SM58 or SM57 is grounded. The guys that touch
the mic with the guitar strings all learned that if your lips hit the
mic grill, the whap that hits you in the face is like a big blue ball
of lightning, followed by little fireflys floating around for a few
more minutes while you get your senses back. It pretty much ruins the
whole set for me. What causes it is the stage backline is plugged into
a breaker box running off phase A, the lights are on phase B, and the
sound is on phase C, and they are all drawing different currents, so
the neutral is floating about 20V above ground because of the
unbalanced load. I can test a 9V battery by licking it, but 20V is
like a mule kick.

In a perfect world, all exposed metal should be tied to a non
current-carrying grounding buss. Then the neutral can float wherever it
wants.

I've worked on a few old time guitar amps. IIRC, some Fender amps
included a 'hum' switch that coupled the amp chassis to one side or the
other of the line. I forget the value of the cap., but if anyone
recalls, it would be interesting to see what sort of currents might pass
from the hot side of the line, through the cap., a human body (Mick
Jagger's tongue?), and another similar cap. in a second amp to the
neutral side.

Perhaps this is why all the British bands came over to the USA. 110V is
more survivable than 220V. ;-)
 
P

PopMed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Right. The GFI dectects only an imbalance in neutral and hot currents
on the device it's protecting.

This means that EVERYTHING on the stage area needs to be on a GFI, and
that includes backline. If an amp is popping the GFI, you need to fix it.

Now, I know that outdoor festivals it's very common to defeat GFIs in
order to deal with backline equipment that has ground fault issues. I
don't have a real problem with this, IF the power system grounds are
good enough and the crew is watching out.



Note that he was electrocuted by a circuit which BY LAW needs to be on
a GFI, and has been for more than a decade now.

See, in a perfect world, there are no electrical leakage issues. But
the ground is there to protect you when things go wrong. And the GFI is
there to protect you when the ground goes wrong. It's a belt-and-suspenders
thing.

Maybe you'll never need the ground to be there. Probably you'll never
need the GFI. But if you SHOULD need it, you'll be really glad you have it.

Starting in the 60's I've enjoyed playing guitar and singing in
various garage bands. Nothing serious, loads of fun and we even made
a bit of money at it. I know this situation well: playing guitar
with the fingers of your left (fretting) hand wrapped around the neck
and strings and leaning into the mike to belt out the
chorus...Suddenly your lips brush against the metal wind screen of the
mike and you feel the jolt which hasn't killed you but now tells you
that this is going to be one of those "electrical evenings" with one
more thing to worry about other than harmonies, lyrics and timing!

Over the decades, I've noticed this phenomenon becoming much less
frequent and today it's virtually a non-issue. This of course is due
to the fact that nowadays everything is grounded. Even vintage gear
can be made safe such that no performer or tech should be in the
position of becoming the return path for two conductors that are at
significantly different potentials.

But what was the cause of this event? It was actually fairly common.
Every musician who played amplified instrument in the 60's and 70's
experienced it and very few of the amplifiers involved were actually
faulty.

I refer you to the schematic of a Fender Bassman model AA864
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=859 This
model is an example of the type of amplifier used in the 60's for
everything from bass to organ to guitar and yes, vocals. It was
common practice (although not ideal) to run all instruments and mikes
off 2 to 4 instrument amplifiers all of which had non-grounded and non-
polarized power plugs. Even when you graduated to a real PA system
the amplifier's design looked basically the same. Note the primary
(mains) circuit of the power supply. No earth ground, no polarization
for the plug or accessory socket.

Note the .047mfd 600 vdc cap attached to the "ground switch". This
allowed you to switch the chassis ground through the capacitor to
either the hot or neutral side of the mains. Other amplifiers lacked
the switch but still had a cap of similar value hard wired to one side
of the mains. In practice, you flipped the switch or unplugged and
reversed the "polarity" of the the power cord to the position which
gave you the least hum. It is ironic that the "least hum" position
was sometimes the one where the cap was connected to the hot side.
For this reason or simply because the band couldn't care less about a
bit of hum during the quiet passages their was a good chance that one
or more chassis ground was actually connected through a cap to the hot
side.

Now the reactance of a .047 ufd capacitor at 60 Hz is 56.4 Kohm. If
shunted across 117 vac the resulting "leakage current" is 2.074 ma
definitely enough to feel as a shock but probably not enough to kill
you unless you had other medical issues. In fact it would not trip
most GFCIs. Unless you had very sweaty hands and very moist lips, the
actual current flowing from one "hot" amp through your body to another
"cold" amp would be considerably less especially when the second
series connected cap is taken into account. This is probably why most
of the aforementioned musicians of the 60's are still alive though
perhaps a bit impaired.

So what was the problem? Well consider what the consumer-grade
capacitors of that area were made of. Was it mylar or polypropylene
or polystyrene? Did Jimi Hendrix use a capo onstage? Well the
typical cap of that value and voltage rating was a paper/foil/wax
device. If you've ever taken one of these apart (which is easily
done), you'll appreciate how low-tech they were and how flimsy was the
paper barrier which could short reducing the reactance to ZERO. If
you were unlucky enough to be standing on wet ground or lying in a
bathtub or brushed up against a genuinely grounded PA system you could
be in for a really bad day!

Fortunately what I've described above was a rare event but I sure am
happy to use properly grounded gear so that I can concentrate on
harmonies, lyrics and timing!

David
 
B

BobG

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've worked on a few old time guitar amps. IIRC, some Fender amps
included a 'hum' switch that coupled the amp chassis to one side or the
other of the line. I forget the value of the cap., but if anyone
recalls, it would be interesting to see what sort of currents might pass
from the hot side of the line, through the cap., a human body (Mick
Jagger's tongue?), and another similar cap. in a second amp to the
neutral side.
=================================
..047uf 600V as I recall.
 
P

PopMed

Jan 1, 1970
0
In a perfect world, all exposed metal should be tied to a non
current-carrying grounding buss. Then the neutral can float wherever it
wants.

I've worked on a few old time guitar amps. IIRC, some Fender amps
included a 'hum' switch that coupled the amp chassis to one side or the
other of the line. I forget the value of the cap., but if anyone
recalls, it would be interesting to see what sort of currents might pass
from the hot side of the line, through the cap., a human body (Mick
Jagger's tongue?), and another similar cap. in a second amp to the
neutral side.

Perhaps this is why all the British bands came over to the USA. 110V is
more survivable than 220V. ;-)
I agree Paul. My other post addresses what you bring up. Sorry I
didn't see your post come in while I was typing mine. Interestingly
the British Marshall amps and others to my knowledge had no grounding
caps. Even back then the mains cords seemed to be grounded. I spent
some time in Sweden in the late 60's and met a hospital engineer who
absolutely could not believe how comparatively flimsy the US two prong
plug was. He thought they should be outlawed!

David
 
A

Arny Krueger

Jan 1, 1970
0
I spent
some time in Sweden in the late 60's and met a hospital engineer who
absolutely could not believe how comparatively flimsy the US two prong
plug was. He thought they should be outlawed!

I felt that way the whole time I lived in Germany, and for several years
after I returned to the US. A minimal US 3-prong isn't all that wonderful,
either.

There has been some consciousness-raising among the designers of US
standards plugs since then, but AFAIK it isn't manditory.
 
D

David McCall

Jan 1, 1970
0
PopMed said:
So what was the problem? Well consider what the consumer-grade
capacitors of that area were made of. Was it mylar or polypropylene
or polystyrene? Did Jimi Hendrix use a capo onstage? Well the
typical cap of that value and voltage rating was a paper/foil/wax
device. If you've ever taken one of these apart (which is easily
done), you'll appreciate how low-tech they were and how flimsy was the
paper barrier which could short reducing the reactance to ZERO. If
you were unlucky enough to be standing on wet ground or lying in a
bathtub or brushed up against a genuinely grounded PA system you could
be in for a really bad day!

Fortunately what I've described above was a rare event but I sure am
happy to use properly grounded gear so that I can concentrate on
harmonies, lyrics and timing!
Speaking of foil and paper caps.
In the late 50s I had the fun time of spending hours cleaning thousands of
little bits of gooey wax paper and foil out of the inside of a point to
point
wired Gibson tube guitar amp. This was the main filter in the power supply
and it faild with quite a bang. Good old days? Not always :)

David
 
V

VWWall

Jan 1, 1970
0
David said:
Speaking of foil and paper caps.
In the late 50s I had the fun time of spending hours cleaning thousands of
little bits of gooey wax paper and foil out of the inside of a point to
point
wired Gibson tube guitar amp. This was the main filter in the power supply
and it faild with quite a bang. Good old days? Not always :)
That was probably not a paper cap, but an electrolytic, with
considerable voltage across it. When they blew, the remains looked like
a chicken had been plucked and the feathers left behind!

They still blow, but most are now in aluminum cans, not a cardboard tube
like the older ones.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Scott said:
Maybe you'll never need the ground to be there. Probably you'll never
need the GFI. But if you SHOULD need it, you'll be really glad you have it.


Scott, I still pull green wire with EMT.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"VWWall"
That was probably not a paper cap, but an electrolytic, with considerable
voltage across it. When they blew, the remains looked like a chicken had
been plucked and the feathers left behind!

They still blow, but most are now in aluminium cans, not a cardboard tube
like the older ones.

** Nonsense.

Electro caps were then and still are now all fitted into aluminium cans,
then sealed at the top with a rubber gasket to prevent loss of the volatile
electrolyte. The can was connected to the negative terminal of the
capacitor and a wire lead welded to the closed end.

1950s and early 1960 examples were typically covered in cardboard tubes -
usually reddish brown in colour.

Later examples were fitted into plastic sleeves - could be nearly any
colour.



....... Phil
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I felt that way the whole time I lived in Germany, and for several years
after I returned to the US. A minimal US 3-prong isn't all that wonderful,
either.

There has been some consciousness-raising among the designers of US
standards plugs since then, but AFAIK it isn't manditory.

Ah, you yer-a-peein' guys are just jealous that we've got such an
inexpensive, convenient, universally-recognized plug as the US standard,
that's been in service reliably for over a half-century.

Admittedly, the contact interface isn't intended to support large weights,
merely to conduct electricity. :)

But really, do you Brits and other Yurps need a fist-sized plug just so
you don't have to remember to keep your thumb out from between the prongs?

Thanks!
Rich
 
S

Scott Dorsey

Jan 1, 1970
0
PopMed said:
So what was the problem? Well consider what the consumer-grade
capacitors of that area were made of. Was it mylar or polypropylene
or polystyrene? Did Jimi Hendrix use a capo onstage? Well the
typical cap of that value and voltage rating was a paper/foil/wax
device. If you've ever taken one of these apart (which is easily
done), you'll appreciate how low-tech they were and how flimsy was the
paper barrier which could short reducing the reactance to ZERO. If
you were unlucky enough to be standing on wet ground or lying in a
bathtub or brushed up against a genuinely grounded PA system you could
be in for a really bad day!

Doesn't even need to be that bad! Take a .47 uF cap, and even the
impedance at 60 Hz is low enough to allow a good fault current.

You'll see fault currents on some cheap PC power supplies with pi
filters on the inputs... the pi filter leakage is high enough to
pop the GFI. So what do power supply manufacturers do when people
complain about this? They leave off the filtration entirely and spew
trash on the power line.

But that is a rant for another day.
--scott
 
S

Scott Dorsey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Grise said:
Ah, you yer-a-peein' guys are just jealous that we've got such an
inexpensive, convenient, universally-recognized plug as the US standard,
that's been in service reliably for over a half-century.

Admittedly, the contact interface isn't intended to support large weights,
merely to conduct electricity. :)

I got one word for you: NEMA Twist-Locks. Available from 15A on up.
They make the Europlug look cheap and flimsy!
--scott
 
V

VWWall

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
"VWWall"

** Nonsense.

Electro caps were then and still are now all fitted into aluminium cans,
then sealed at the top with a rubber gasket to prevent loss of the volatile
electrolyte. The can was connected to the negative terminal of the
capacitor and a wire lead welded to the closed end.

1950s and early 1960 examples were typically covered in cardboard tubes -
usually reddish brown in colour.

I have in my hands a red, yellow, and blue one. The can is much thinner
than the recent electrolytics which use the can as a mount. Hence they
created much more mess when they blew. The cardboard tube contributed
to the mess.
Later examples were fitted into plastic sleeves - could be nearly any
colour.



...... Phil

The accepted sig for ng's is: (2 dashes, space, line return)
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"VWWall"
Phil said:
I have in my hands a red, yellow, and blue one. The can is much thinner
than the recent electrolytics which use the can as a mount.



** Oh - SOOOO now they DO have an aluminium can ??

Musta been hiding inside that gaudy cardboard - eh ??


The accepted sig for ng's is: (2 dashes, space, line return)


** BOLLOCKS !!

Why don't you go and **** yourself

- you posturing, bullshitting ASSHOLE !!.





....... Phil
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Jan 1, 1970
0
you are so out of the loop no more debate can be had

You're a goddamned idiot, and you couldn't debate if your life depended
on it, twit.
tell me about the last time you set up 35 wireless mics for a show
I have

I wouldn't work "a show you have". Your shows are shit. I have,
however made wireless mic systems that pass voice, video and data over
VARIOUS bands.

Some are used by LEOs. Some are used on carrier decks.

Do you even know what a diversity receiver is?
oh and while you at it can you name the protocol that will/is replaceing uhf
/vhf as a transmission mode?

You're an idiot. The devices I mentioned are using a proprietary
packet model, and it utilizes QAM 256.

put up or shut up

You're an idiot.

Thanks for proving the above assertion.**** off, you ten years behind the curve retard.

http://www.avalonrf.com/Products/transmitters.html
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Chairman Of The Most Asinine Fuckwits "
You're a goddamned idiot, and you couldn't debate if your life depended
on it, twit.


I wouldn't work "a show you have". Your shows are shit. I have,
however made wireless mic systems that pass voice, video and data over
VARIOUS bands.

Some are used by LEOs. Some are used on carrier decks.


** The police and onboard Navy vessels ??

Hardly the same category as stage performers.

Do you even know what a diversity receiver is?


** This criminal MORON does not even know what a performer's " radio mic"
system is.

You're an idiot. The devices I mentioned are using a proprietary
packet model, and it utilizes QAM 256.


** Shame none of it is suitable for nor allowed to be used by performers.

Thanks for proving the above assertion.
**** off, you ten years behind the curve retard.

http://www.avalonrf.com/Products/transmitters.html



** ROTFLMAO !!

No performance quality radio mics there at all !!





........ Phil
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Jan 1, 1970
0
** The police and onboard Navy vessels ??

Hardly the same category as stage performers.

The ruggedized devices I spoke of have BETTER audio, video and data
figures than commercial crap does.
 
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