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Bypass motor on motor help

Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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If those are the over travels in series with the motor, they each would require a reverse diode rectifier wired across them that when tripped would allow the reverse action to take place.
Either that, or the opposite switch is stuck open.
If you can take the motor off the limits and check continuity.
Also do the motor 12v test as suggested.
M.
,
 

bline22

Nov 11, 2016
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Thank you both for the reply and words of encouragement. I do a different form of troubleshooting all day and electrical stuff has been a source of unknown but an interests. I have been very appreciative of the patience that the both of you are showing and sticking with me

I have some clarity questions.

When you guys are saying doing the motor test and touching the positive from the motor and negative from the motor to the car battery do i need to unsolder the connection on the reed switch or can i simply tap in to that or perhaps disconnect from the motor attaching my own wire?

Last, do i need to put the motor cover back on when trying to power it up? i assume so.
 

Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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Either attach directly to the motor or the red/blk red/brn wires.
What continuity do you get across both the series limit switches?
M.
 

bline22

Nov 11, 2016
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OK. Here is how i was trying to get the motor to do something. these 2 wires i was touching against the battery and nothing happened.

Is the wrong process in trying to make this baby spin?

I did unplug the wires that ran to the main board as when i initially tried this putting the wires on the brown and red wire i could hear some beeping coming from the machine ever so slightly which it seemed it was trying to power it on. Even then the motor did nothing which is why i moved the test to these 2 wires you see in the image.
 

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Minder

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It appears that you have the right idea, But that won't work, you have the field removed, this will not allow the motor to turn.
You need to make the same electrical connection but with the field in place.
Check continuity again with the field in place and try power again.
The field consists of permanent magnets around the armature.
M.
 

Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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Did you actually find out where the white/yellow pair marked Reed goes to inside the motor?
M.
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Sir bline22 . . . . .


O.K. I am looking at the post #13 where you have the motor housing off . I see what looks to almost be a 100% intact brush in its holder, I am also expecting the opposite one being in the same pristine condition.
You explained your top red box but left me hanging on the explanation in the specifics in any referencing to the 2nd and 3rd red boxes.

You are saying:

I then plugged everything in and I have continuity from the motor red wire to the red wire on the

reed(?) switch is that right. Also, i have continuity from the black wire (red box) on the motor to the

brown wire on the reed sw(red box).
When I would check the black wire to the brown wire on the reed sw i would have my son trip the 2

switches to make sure they worked and I all looked good.

All I can relate to in the 2nd red box, is that it is pointing out the negative brush holder assembly.

Then you ask about the:

Last, do i need to put the motor cover back on when trying to power it up? i assume so.

In referring to the same post #13 photo where you have the motor shroud at the top TOTALLY pulled, and had you looked inside of it, you would have see the cluster of 2 STRONG ceramic magnets internally bonded , they are producing STRONG magnetic fields which your exposed electromagnetically activated rotor works against.
So . . . certainly . . . . you have to replace THAT shroud.
Down at the very bottom you have your end cover and I am seeing the RED and BROWN motor wires going down to it. That cover, you can leave off, exposed.

We now revert to your different post #9 photo because 13 is being so overlit and reflective, that I cannot make out any of its connections details.

On #9 photo I can see the formerly loose PCB now has been remounted with its 2 screws and we see two separate cojoined pairs of solder pads, they are being there just to interface the 2 motor connections into an external wiring harness.

Of Those:

There are 2 cojoined solder pads, the right of which, connects to the RED DC motor wire and the left of the co joined solder pad connects to a RED wire of a harness of 4 wires which exit the housing.

The next co joined solder pad pairs have the BLACK wire of the harness connected to one of the solder pads and the other half of the solder pad has the BROWN motor wire connected to it.

If you now look at the whole small PCB you will see that the opposite half, apart from the motor
connections, will have a WHITE ( which your drawing shows in a contrasty grey ) and YELLOW wire from the harness, that connect to small solder pads.
Those connections foils are carried around the periphery of the board, to finally end up in accomodating the 2 very small leads of a magnetic reed switch.

That magnetic reed switch is being activated by its close proximity to a rotating bi-polar ceramic magnet tied into the lead screw gearing.
This device is only having a small power capability, which is serving merely as sending its switch closures as being counts of the rotation of the long lead screw.
Extreme limit detection of the lead screw travel is dependent upon the two switches which your son was manipulating.
Intermediate positions are being ascertained by the counts sent from the reed switch back to the
conrol electronics.

This procedure is a variant, which I see being extensively used on linear activators and correctional tracking positioners of azmiuth and elevation on satellite systems.

You say:

I then plugged everything in and I have continuity from the motor red wire to the red wire on the reed(?) switch is that right.
Also, i have continuity from the black wire (red box) on the motor to the brown wire on the reed sw
(red box).

This sounds all wierd, since the reed switch is being involved in an ENTIRELY separate circuit and should not be involved with ANY wiring to the DC motor. . . . . unless . . . . .a possible exclusion, with them sharing EITHER a common ground OR a power connection.


Below, is a redraw of your info, additionally incorporating steering diodes which would typically be encountered on a linear / screw drive actuator mechanism .

IF you put 12 VDC from a supply, as hefty as a car battery, to those two motor connections . . . RED and - BLACK /or/ BROWN that are coming directly out of the motor . . .you should immediately get some rotational motor activity, if all is being well with the motor. However, not turning quite as fast as with a full 24 V being supplied.

MAGNETIC REED SWITCH:

The reed switch is solely related to the rotation of the motor sending pulses out, in relation to the number of rotations of the lead screw. There may be upwards of 600-1000 pulses on a full transverse of the lead screw from one extreme limit to the other. That can be even further fine tuned on the positioning of the stopping of the lead screw by the use of either a quad polarity magnet or even a hex polarity magnet which would double or even triple the pulse outputs per turn of the lead screw.

Up at the control electronics there is a counter of these pules and if intermediate programmed stops need to be created in the linear actuator positioning, the outputted pulses are compared to a specific programmed in count. When the counts equate the actuator stops on a dime at that point.
There it remains, until a command promps it to proceed forward to the next programmed stop position.
MULTIPLE stopped positions can be programmed in by their counts .
At the extreme limits of travel, micro switches , such as your son was toggling earlier, will trip to stop the motor power just prior to extreme mechanical limits ( JAMMING UP ) and that instant loss of power being pulled by the motor, will tell the control electronics that the motor has reached an end of limit, so it then reverses the polarity of the supply voltage.
Then, it is being fully ready to go again.
On a start command, the motor will then be moving the lead screw, but starting in the other direction


YOUR DIAGRAM . . . . REDRAWN :
To now include end of limit steering diodes

Motor_Actuator.jpg


maxresdefault.jpg





73's deEdd
 
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bline22

Nov 11, 2016
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wow guys, thanks again and for such detail.

I finally got around to testing this once again now that people are gone from holidays and good news, i think. I didn't see the other responses after the one where Minder told me to put on the cover and try again.

I put the cover back on, attached the wires to the brown and red and the motor turns. I will read through the other posts shortly and see about answering your questions too or what to try next. I had to get that out there that the motor turns. was pretty cool and I am happy about that. ;)
 

Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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The motor is the main thing, anything else should be minor, hopefully.
You could try a ohm meter across the yellow gray pair, unplug from the controller first and see if you get pulses when the motor turns.
M.
 

bline22

Nov 11, 2016
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@73's deEdd I read your post a number of times to try and understand it and i have a much better understanding of how we expect this thing to work. I didn't realize initially that there were those innards around the housing. I should have known as when i would try and put it back i could tell there was magnetic pull and that something was happening. I have to trust your drawing and from the look of it it seems spot on. I am not sure on the reed switch piece but you would know better then I. ;)

@Minder, i did fire it back up here and while running used my ohm meeter and i don't get any pulsing?
 

Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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Can you actually locate it and see what the device is and what, if anything triggers it? There is no alternating field effect that could trip it, unless there is some kind of magnet that is, or should be, rotating past it.
Maybe the magnet has slipped or missing, is it showing normally open?
The magnets in the stator are actually the field for the motor.
M.
 

bline22

Nov 11, 2016
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Can you actually locate it and see what the device is and what, if anything triggers it? There is no alternating field effect that could trip it, unless there is some kind of magnet that is, or should be, rotating past it.
Maybe the magnet has slipped or missing, is it showing normally open?
The magnets in the stator are actually the field for the motor.
M.

Gosh, i am not exactly sure what you mean? Can you explain a bit more how you might test this?

When you say a magnet missing, are you thinking there might have been a maget on the reed switch?
 

Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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A reed switch is normally activated by a permanent magnet of some kind, when it passes over the switch, the switch closes (normally N.O).
The magnet is attached to some kind of moving object and triggers, ON/OFF, every revolution.
I cannot see the actual reed sw from the picture, but if you can observe if anything resembling a magnet passing over the switch when the screw is rotated may offer a clue as you should see a contact change, open or close, when it passes the reed.
Another scenario is if the switch has somehow moved out of range of the magnet actuator
M.
 

bline22

Nov 11, 2016
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Thanks for the reply once again.

So before perhaps I address what you mention i did open up the gear box and noticed that it seems that one gear seems to have come off of the motor shaft. Notice at the top of the picture the gear sittign next to the shaft.

I tried putting it back on but with no luck and wondering if maybe you have a tip on how to do that? The motor shaft has a flat end on one side that you align the gear with but when I try and push it on i am not able. As hard as it seems to be to get this on I am surprised it came off. The only reason I noticed this was that i flipped it over while looking for some answers to your question for the cover to come off. In addition when the motor first turned i noticed that even though I could hear it i could not see movement.

This is beyond the initial issue however so must be something in addition to the issue i initially reported as the motor never seemed to even try to work when I first started. Not sure if me moving this around or something or simply pulling the cover off loosened this. Which would be odd I think as I haven't banged it around much and have been moving pretty gingerly.
 

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Minder

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Perhaps the motor did not move because the gear was jammed, or perhaps because it did not see the reed switch, Where is the reed switch in relation to this?
Are you sure that is the shaft the gear came from?
if the shaft did not turn when you energized the motor this also could be the cause of the original error.
Has the gear or shaft any burr on it as the reason it is not fitting to the shaft?
M.
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Sir bline22 . . . . .

Looking at your #39 posts picture and the VERY long shaft that is facing us, There is definitely one flat on that shaft and possibly another at 90 degrees to that one. I suspicion that the unit not reassembling-alignig up and moving on down to close is due to that shaft having turned a bit or even falling off and your reinstalling it with a different meshing to the gear that it mates with , You will have to look back and forth VERY closely to see that they are mating alike when pressed together again. That is the only thing that I see that would preclude the clamshell reassembling.
WHAT you were WANTING to see will be on the other side of that housing and you will lift the two screws that holds on the PCB and that the Reed switch is mounted on its backside. Then you will be able to see the small glass reed switch and the VERY CLOSE NEARBY rotating magnet that is mechanically connected to a shaft coming out on the CLEAN . . .LOOK MOM ! no gease . . .side of that gear box..
Be SURE to not get your RED and BROWN wires routed wrong, or pinched.

Gearing rundown:

Largest gear at the bottom . . . .which we are questioning its long rotary shafts teeth positioning.
It meshes into a two function pinion gear 11 teeth ? , with the top small portion receiving that 1st gears mesh.
The bottom portion of that same gear with its 48? teeth meshes into the small dual gear set 3rd gear over, into its small 10 ? teeth pinion . The outside 36? teeth of that same gear would be left to mesh into that very small 14? tooth gear.
That last small gears vertical alignment looks askew to me, as well as that RED wires positioning / routing.

And . . . . can you give us a manufacturers picture URL reference of that unit ? To see what movements are involved with a user.

73's deEdd
 
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Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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Is the gear off of the small shaft with a flat on it, if so that implies that the shaft turns and the gear may have a small set screw with an Allen socket type recess.
Possibly this is the rotating shaft for the reed sw?
Or is it the one in the centre?
M.
 

bline22

Nov 11, 2016
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@73's deEdd - i tried to find a drawing but was not able. I have found information to be pretty darn lacking unless there is some place special that I simply do not know about. :)

I did get the gear back on there and i can tell now that when i turn the large geared shaft that the motor is turning too. So i think, if that was broken or the gear off, it seems back on and functioning now again.

@Minder, i think my belief on what a reed switch was was incorrect. There is a magnet deal that does move.

On the image 1-elliptical the green box and the circle in it is magnetized. 2-Elliptical has everything installed again. The blue box in that picture you might be able to see this little black box (for lack of better description) on the bottom of the green board that hovers above the magnetized circle (green box in 1 - elliptical image) So i think, based on your description, that circle (in green box) moves and triggers this reed switch? (little black box?)

The red box is an oh crap moment. The white plastic piece that holds the little green board broke off. however the screw that holds that green board on to the white piece that broke seems to go all the way through the broken piece so seems to hold it. i hope this is not an issue. if so perhaps i can super glue it. I hope that makes sense.

2- elliptical is where i left off. I did try and put some energy to this before putting it all together and the main shaft did turn.

that is when i put it back together as far as the image in 2-elliptical. I did try and power the machine on a few times to see if the gear was what was jamming it up to see if it now worked. but no go.

So next I thought I would try and power it via the battery so touched the wires like i had. to the outside red to brown and nothing happened. I then decided to check for continuity between the two and nothing. now i seem to have continuity between the following pairs
red to red
brown to black

I do not believe this was the case before.

also, i think i had checked for continuity between these 2 points at the very top of the green board that you can see in the blue square on the 2 elliptical box image which i had before trying to power this on. now i no longer have continuity.

any idea what is going on here or what I did? I don't think i broke anything more then the white plastic piece.
 

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Minder

Apr 24, 2015
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You will have continuity from red to red and black to brown as they are bridged on the PCCT board I believe.
Also is it sitting on one of the limits?
And the reason you may not read continuity is that the meter will not measure across a diode as it will measure open in a certain direction if it has them across the limits, Also if it does not move when power is applied, try both polarities .
Try the diode check range if you have one and swap leads if no reading.
A normal resistance range will only work if the limits are closed, i.e. one is not activated.
You should be able to power the motor at this point.
Confirm this and get back.
M.
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Sir bline22 . . . . .

" Congranulations " on your having found the round, black activator " maggit " for the magnetic reed switch.
At least, give us the brand name of the unit to search with. In the interim, I just went to getting an all encompassing patent drawing.

Elliptical Machine.jpg

On this unit, its linear actuator is being, the item # 432, and I can see how it would tie into the stride aspect which you mentioned, as it either stre e e e t ches out or compresses in.

About the only space I see being available for hiding the control electronics unlts, is within the 364 or 370 area along with the remoted display at the RED star.
That also seems to be where YOUR UNIT has its control board electronics placement , in relation to the activator.
When you are applying your DC motor running power RIGHT at the motors RED and BLACK/or/ BROWN wires directly out of the motor . . . the limit switches would not even be in circuit to disrupt your application of power.
ALSO, if you reverse the battery leads polarity, the motor should REVERSE its direction of travel. Just try and see if you can get the unit to run from extreme limits by using that info.
SINCE you might have some mechanical binding or jamming up involved with the lead screws travel .
Also, on your motor, you never did get a the proper photo angle for the reading of either the amperage pull or the wattage of its motor. All I viewed was the Jaeger and you told us of the 24VDC aspect .


The red box is an oh crap moment. The white plastic piece that holds the little green board broke off. however the screw that holds that green board on to the white piece that broke seems to go all the way through the broken piece so seems to hold it. i hope this is not an issue. if so perhaps i can super glue it. I hope that makes sense.

I can see the INTACT left one near your thumb and it seems to have a screw retaining the far end of it.I am not particularly seeing that tapped hole at the other side where the broken unit mounts.
I give ZERO credibility to SUCCESSFULLY bondiing to that white materiel which should be HDPE or possibly Delrin.
If MY problem to solve I would be placing the broken part into its old positioning and finding the center of that wide area that it covers.
Guesstimate that position over to the pot metal of the housing that is adjunct to it.
Go to the exterior of that housing and drill a 6/32 clearance hole for a screw to pass through the housing.
Mount the PCB and the broken tab and that one screw of the two screws from the PCB to the
tab should hold it in place. Use a fine Blue Sharpie to reach thru the metal housings drilled hole to transfer its position to the broken tabs surface via a small circle.
Disasssemble all and drill the needed hole throug the broken tab.
Note that the left INTACT tab has a small spacing clearance between the housing and the tab.
Replicate that separating distance to the broken tab with an inserted washer.
The mechanical build then will be a SS screw into the metal housing and passing through its drilled hole and then passing thru the required spacing washer(s) then thru the hole previously drilled in the broken tab and then a surfactal force dispersing washer and a final LOCKING nut . . . . and a final Locktite application, only, after all mechanical alignment checks out.


73s de Edd

.
 
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