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some diodes in the circuit were shorted..so i replace it
what rectifiers do you mean?
73's de Edd
- Aug 21, 2015
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Sir pharaon. . . . . . . . . . . . .
when i connect it the multimeter gave me a reading of 12 v as an output.
Thats GOOD as it seems like the power converter is working and putting out 12VDC but we would not be able to get the FULL 12 watts power capability from it, when using the lamp in series.
after few seconds of connecting the multimeter to the output jack the "lamp" light a little then went off as you said
but then the 10uf 400 v capacitor got so hot and fail as the old one.
I don't see the meter hookup as being a problem at all . . . .it surely was just a coincidence . . . and really being related to the run time that the circuit had accumulated.
If I was doing your repair, I would replace all 4 of the diodes in that FULL Wave Bridge circuit with 4 new 1N4007 units .
They are clustered in the corner where the BLUE AC input wire is .
I believe that your present problem might be related to that other capacitor being LOW on its capacitance.
Therefore I would place a new 10 ufd 400VDC capacitor in both of the C1position, AND I cant read the other caps C? identifier, but it is being the GREEN capacitor.
In the end, we have to worry about the 2 capacitors overall height, as the outer case has to go back over them.
Additional question :
Did you change out D2 diode, if so it needs to be a special FAST switching diode type and not one if those SLOW ones that are being used in the FWB circuitry.
A SLOW one now being used as D2, could cause a loading problem on that power transistor.
ADDENDA:
Just above on photo on post #22 . . . .that BLACK capacitor is certainly physically large, what is its capacitance and voltage rating.
And I thought that you said that the original one in the unit was a 4.7 ufd unit .
( I would have used a 10 at 400 for it also. )
I can make out the . . . .now questionable . . . . GREEN one as 10 ufd at 400VDC,
73's de Edd
when i connect it the multimeter gave me a reading of 12 v as an output.
Thats GOOD as it seems like the power converter is working and putting out 12VDC but we would not be able to get the FULL 12 watts power capability from it, when using the lamp in series.
after few seconds of connecting the multimeter to the output jack the "lamp" light a little then went off as you said
but then the 10uf 400 v capacitor got so hot and fail as the old one.
I don't see the meter hookup as being a problem at all . . . .it surely was just a coincidence . . . and really being related to the run time that the circuit had accumulated.
If I was doing your repair, I would replace all 4 of the diodes in that FULL Wave Bridge circuit with 4 new 1N4007 units .
They are clustered in the corner where the BLUE AC input wire is .
I believe that your present problem might be related to that other capacitor being LOW on its capacitance.
Therefore I would place a new 10 ufd 400VDC capacitor in both of the C1position, AND I cant read the other caps C? identifier, but it is being the GREEN capacitor.
In the end, we have to worry about the 2 capacitors overall height, as the outer case has to go back over them.
Additional question :
Did you change out D2 diode, if so it needs to be a special FAST switching diode type and not one if those SLOW ones that are being used in the FWB circuitry.
A SLOW one now being used as D2, could cause a loading problem on that power transistor.
ADDENDA:
Just above on photo on post #22 . . . .that BLACK capacitor is certainly physically large, what is its capacitance and voltage rating.
And I thought that you said that the original one in the unit was a 4.7 ufd unit .
( I would have used a 10 at 400 for it also. )
I can make out the . . . .now questionable . . . . GREEN one as 10 ufd at 400VDC,
73's de Edd
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the D2 is one of the FULL Wave Bridge circuit that i'll replace with 4 new 1N4007 units
its 10uf 400v but where i live thats how big the capacitor
yes it's surely 10 uf 400v and i'll replace it also as you suggest
the only problem for me will be to find a fuse like that red one i'm sure i'll not be able to find one
but will try with lamp first and give feed back
73's de Edd
- Aug 21, 2015
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Sir pharaon. . . . . . . . . . . . .
I am seeing the 4 diodes used for the FULL Wave Bridge rectifier, and they are located very close to the BLUE AC input wire.
Then you say:
the D2 is one of the FULL Wave Bridge circuit that i'll replace with 4 new 1N4007 units
I still see D2 as NOT being one of those FWB diodes and its cathode connection is being connected to the center connection of the power transistor..
BUT if you have never touched / changed that diode,don't worry about it, as it would have been the proper type that the manufacturer originally used.
is it ok to use 200 watt lamp as fuse or will be load on the circuit
Initially use a 60 or 100 watt bulb, until we see that the 2 changed electrolytic caps are not going to be a problem.
And that the new caps are not running HOT after some test time, as well as the units heat sinked power transistor.
All the time, while you are confirming 12VDC coming out of the supply output.
Then possibly a trial with a 200 watt lamp for a like time . . .which should almost be like testing the unit at full power.
73's de Edd
I am seeing the 4 diodes used for the FULL Wave Bridge rectifier, and they are located very close to the BLUE AC input wire.
Then you say:
the D2 is one of the FULL Wave Bridge circuit that i'll replace with 4 new 1N4007 units
I still see D2 as NOT being one of those FWB diodes and its cathode connection is being connected to the center connection of the power transistor..
BUT if you have never touched / changed that diode,don't worry about it, as it would have been the proper type that the manufacturer originally used.
is it ok to use 200 watt lamp as fuse or will be load on the circuit
Initially use a 60 or 100 watt bulb, until we see that the 2 changed electrolytic caps are not going to be a problem.
And that the new caps are not running HOT after some test time, as well as the units heat sinked power transistor.
All the time, while you are confirming 12VDC coming out of the supply output.
Then possibly a trial with a 200 watt lamp for a like time . . .which should almost be like testing the unit at full power.
73's de Edd
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the blue one is D9 and connected to the left of the power transistor with the red line "i changed this one"
the yellow one is D5 and connected to the center of the power transistor with the green line" i DID NOT change this one"
yet i'm not sure if i used the right diode for D9 " with the blue circle"..should it be also 1N4007...since i couldn't read the number on it when i take it out
73's de Edd
- Aug 21, 2015
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Sir pharaon. . . . . . .
Is it starting to get hot in one minute or does it take 5 minutes ?.
I forget if you have a DVM or an analog pointer meter.
What we need to find out is the amount of AC ripple present across both of those filter capacitors.
Its safest to tack on some smaller gauge hookup wire to a capacitor for each + and - capacitor terminal and run the wires to the side a bit and and twirl each wire around each meter probe tip.
Then you measure in AC mode and work the range switch down from a 200-300 Vac scale until you get a reading. With there being no concern if the final reading is being below 1 volt.
You test each of those capacitors in that way, with you probably only finding AC / ripple voltage on that one problem capacitor.
Not knowing your meter, it might require a series 1 ufd paper capacitor on one meter lead to block any DC voltage passage and only let AC pass through the capacitor.
73's de Edd
Is it starting to get hot in one minute or does it take 5 minutes ?.
I forget if you have a DVM or an analog pointer meter.
What we need to find out is the amount of AC ripple present across both of those filter capacitors.
Its safest to tack on some smaller gauge hookup wire to a capacitor for each + and - capacitor terminal and run the wires to the side a bit and and twirl each wire around each meter probe tip.
Then you measure in AC mode and work the range switch down from a 200-300 Vac scale until you get a reading. With there being no concern if the final reading is being below 1 volt.
You test each of those capacitors in that way, with you probably only finding AC / ripple voltage on that one problem capacitor.
Not knowing your meter, it might require a series 1 ufd paper capacitor on one meter lead to block any DC voltage passage and only let AC pass through the capacitor.
73's de Edd
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in one minute it get so hot and boom
have digital multi meter
i test the C1 one on 200 AC voltage the multimeter start with 170 ~V then decrease to 37 ~V then decrease stay at 5.5 ~V
the C2 is the same stay at 5 ~V
73's de Edd
- Aug 21, 2015
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Sir pharaon. . . . . . .
That ripple doesn't sound excessive, considering a 170 + Vdc level and the their low amount of capacitance.
Next test would be to see what the DC voltage measured across the C2 capacitor is and how much it changes to BEFORE you even get to that critical 1 minute time.
If it that voltage starts pulling down, there might be a problem in the drive level being received by the POWER transistor. And I would first expect a decline in the capacitance of that black cased electrolytic at the end of the heat sink on the end of the board that the AC power comes in.
I can not read its value due to its mounting direction, with me only being able to read the 105 Deg centigrade marking.
Since this board is not using an optical isolator for feedback on voltage control. That cap is part of the voltage filtering of of the feedback control loop.
You would know it in a HURRY, but I do see all of your FWB diodes polarities being installed correctly, as well as the two electrolytic' s terminals.
Maybe we will see that the B+ is being pulled down somewhat, so that would point to the power transistor associated circuitry.
73's de Edd
That ripple doesn't sound excessive, considering a 170 + Vdc level and the their low amount of capacitance.
Next test would be to see what the DC voltage measured across the C2 capacitor is and how much it changes to BEFORE you even get to that critical 1 minute time.
If it that voltage starts pulling down, there might be a problem in the drive level being received by the POWER transistor. And I would first expect a decline in the capacitance of that black cased electrolytic at the end of the heat sink on the end of the board that the AC power comes in.
I can not read its value due to its mounting direction, with me only being able to read the 105 Deg centigrade marking.
Since this board is not using an optical isolator for feedback on voltage control. That cap is part of the voltage filtering of of the feedback control loop.
You would know it in a HURRY, but I do see all of your FWB diodes polarities being installed correctly, as well as the two electrolytic' s terminals.
Maybe we will see that the B+ is being pulled down somewhat, so that would point to the power transistor associated circuitry.
73's de Edd
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can you check the 4 diodes near C1 and make sure they have a resistance significantly different when you swap the leads around.
please list for us the diodes as described on the board and the two resistances you measure.
ensure the board has not recently been powered up.
and are you using a light globe in series with the power to the power supply? What wattage and what does it do when power is applied?
please list for us the diodes as described on the board and the two resistances you measure.
ensure the board has not recently been powered up.
and are you using a light globe in series with the power to the power supply? What wattage and what does it do when power is applied?
73's de Edd
- Aug 21, 2015
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Sir pharaon . . . . . . .
I didn't see you confirm that all four of the FWB diodes were replaced, as by my earlier comment of :
If they are readily available to you, I would use four 1N4007 diodes. Save the two old diodes that are good and you can use them in the future, in circuitry where only one diode is used.
That 1000 voltage rating is being an extra cushion of safety.
I have inspected the photos and see no polarity issues, as one wrong diode would be an instant bang at 220 VAC line voltage.
Can you supply the numbers or markings on any or all of the original 4 FWB diodes and any that you now have installed .
The reasoning is for us wanting to see if any improperly rated diode either is or was being used.
Two diodes I can not see the polarity of installation, by the use of printed marking on the board, are what looks like D5 that is flat against the board; and a vertically mounted diode near one end of the POWER transistor.
73's de Edd
I didn't see you confirm that all four of the FWB diodes were replaced, as by my earlier comment of :
If they are readily available to you, I would use four 1N4007 diodes. Save the two old diodes that are good and you can use them in the future, in circuitry where only one diode is used.
That 1000 voltage rating is being an extra cushion of safety.
I have inspected the photos and see no polarity issues, as one wrong diode would be an instant bang at 220 VAC line voltage.
Can you supply the numbers or markings on any or all of the original 4 FWB diodes and any that you now have installed .
The reasoning is for us wanting to see if any improperly rated diode either is or was being used.
Two diodes I can not see the polarity of installation, by the use of printed marking on the board, are what looks like D5 that is flat against the board; and a vertically mounted diode near one end of the POWER transistor.
73's de Edd
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D3 = 628
D4 = 675
D1 = 577
D2 = 595
100 watt and it do nothing....dos not glow or dim i don't notice it
yes the 4 been replaced with 4 new diodes 1N4007
D3 = 628
D4 = 675
D1 = 577
D2 = 595
they were 1N4007 and i replaced them with 4 new diode 1N4007
D5
i didn't touch those diodes at all or change them..do you think i should replace them as well?
i only replaced D9 the old one had number RL 207 MIC and the new one can't read it's number..dos it have to be the same?
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Ok, so you've given me the resistance of those diodes one way, what about with the multimeter leads reversed?
Do you have a 15W bulb? Try that. I'm pretty sure a wattage lower than 100W was recommenced. If not, it should have been.
I'll look up that other diode.
While you're making those measurements, also read the resistance both ways from each mains input pin to each leg of the capacitor that's failing. This should be 8 measurements. List them in a table where you show the mains input connection (call them 1 and 2), the pin if the capacitor (+ or -), and the two readings. List the reading with the red lead on the capacitor first.
Do you have a 15W bulb? Try that. I'm pretty sure a wattage lower than 100W was recommenced. If not, it should have been.
I'll look up that other diode.
While you're making those measurements, also read the resistance both ways from each mains input pin to each leg of the capacitor that's failing. This should be 8 measurements. List them in a table where you show the mains input connection (call them 1 and 2), the pin if the capacitor (+ or -), and the two readings. List the reading with the red lead on the capacitor first.
73's de Edd
- Aug 21, 2015
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.
Sir pharaon . . . . . . .
Thought process A . . . . .
I am referencing to my post # 17 where I supplied tandem pictures of the board . . . one area that I caught that was in error was the diode, which we recently covered, that is being mounted flat on the board.
That was being because I was NOT standing on my head and crossing my eyes, therefore I erroneously labeled that diode as D2.
In reality it is being D5.
I then trace it down and see that its circuit function is being a unidirectional steering diode from the power transistor collector that then feeds into 330 ohm parallel pair of SM resistors, then they feed into a ceramic capacitor . . .unseen . . . .but probably .001 thru .01.
Their summed final function, is for spike suppression for that transistor.
The D5 MIC branded diode out of Shanghai is a RL207 . . . . and as Sir Steve noted . . . . is being a 1KV @ 2A diode.
I would thereby basically equate it as being a 2A "1N4007"
On the bottom photo of your # 37 post, I can now see that the two vertical stacked diodes are D7 and D9 , if I ever have to refer to them later.
Thought B . . . . .
In looking at all of the 4 FWB diodes D1----D4 I see no polarity error on all of your installs of the four diodes, nor do I see any reversed polarity installs on C1 or C2 capacitors .
Determined Operation Facts:
The Full AC line voltage comes in and enters the FWB and that first "problem" electrolytic " C1 should have probably up to 340 VDC being generated by it with no loading.
That level of DC then passes down the boards foil paths and then passes each polarity through the tandem wound ferrite inductor for AC incoming and outgoing "trash" filtering.
So, that almost same level of DC, goes into C2 for its further DC filtering action, and then on to feed the power transistor.
You tell us that D1---4 are 1N4007's which I usually consider as basically being bullet proof, unless being HEAVILY current overloaded, or subjected to high voltage , and that 1KV is a very HIGH wall to jump to.
Last consideration is the exception for nearby lightning hits.
And from my VERY first view of one photo of yours and a rework of it, to submit as my reference tandem board photos, you can see how I had reconstructed that area to show the other half of the "Spear" spark gap that you presently have, with its foil vaporized away.
Explained and constructed herewith is THIS UNITS probable failure mode:
That spark gap sits there with adequate spacing of its "Spear" points, so as to not be affected by upper power line input voltage fluctuations.
Now a direct or VERY close lightning hit to the AC line comes in on the HOT AC line and is wanting to get to ground, and immediately sees that spark gap and its ground just on the other side then says " Hey I am such a HIGH VOLTAGE, I can jump that " so a spark over is created in the jump over path.
IMMEDIATELY those amassed 10 quintillion to the power of ? electrons of that normal 220 volt source see their chance and pass thru the SAME conductive plasma path, that is being created by the lightnings initial
high voltage jumpover.
BUT . . . . NOW . . . . that horde of electrons has enlarged that conductive plasma mass up to the level of metal melting.
Meanwhile this NOISY ruckus has awakened Mr Fuse, over to the left, and he quickly notes the situation and says HEY . . . HEY . . . HEY ! ! ! [ Y'awl ] CAN'T do that ! ! ! and he then blows, to open the AC power input circuit, thereby stopping any further damage.
In your case , looks like some of the lightnings HIGH VOLTAGE exceeded 1KV + and additionally took out a pair of your FWB rectifier diodes.
I think that you now have all back to normal, and for a short time period there, we found out that the unit was
putting out its proper regulated secondary voltage.
The only quirk now is this "C1" blowing situation.
I would now suggest the replacement of the fuse where we now have the lamp connected, with an ~ 47 through 100 ohm resistor at 1 watt.
Then pull the BROWN AC line HOT input wire from the PCB and solder connect one of the lamps RED wires to where you just removed the BROWN wire. The other now loose RED wire of the lamp gets connected to the BROWN HOT AC wire.
Now we have a constant resistance in place of the fuse, for initial capacitor charge up surge absorption, during initial powering up of the system, along with the shifting power limiting being provided by the series incandescent lamp.
You want to initially leave that bad C1 position without any capacitor there at all.
Then you power up the system and see if C2 accumulates a charge and does not "blow up" like C1 did.
If it runs give us the DC voltage measured being across C2. ( ? about 340 Vdc ? )
If all goes well with C2 , prepare to try a new C1.
I hope you do as I do, and HARVEST good used parts from electronics equipment being given to you, or from units taken from trash / dumpsters / curbs..
Thoughts:
Phar . . .
yes the 4 been replaced with 4 new diodes 1N4007
D3 = 628
D4 = 675
D1 = 577
D2 = 595
Steve . . .
Ok, so you've given me the resistance of those diodes one way, what about with the multimeter leads reversed?
I am reading THOSE diode value / readings as being Vf specs taken in diode testing mode, being expressed as millivolts.
And to me, if i did not know better, as from him telling us that they were being all new 1N4007's, I would
perceive of D1 and D2 as being fast diodes, while D3 and D4 were general purpose diodes.
BUT . . .we don't know . . . about the supply situation in ? Cairo? as these diodes might have had to be picked/
selected out from an amassed and various assortment of 1N4007's, all being stored in a plastic box.
The new ones I usually get are taped together and you just tear off the quantity needed.
In that situation, you can usually figure that there is a possibility that a great mass of them coming from the same identical wafer "parent", because, just ONE wafer yields a B U N C H ! of diodes..
When I measure them, they rarely deviate from a 10 millivolt spread of their average Vf.
( I really-really wanted to use RED 72 pitch font sizing for emphasis, but that would add on another 7
pages for its accommodation. )
I'm stopping now . . .to see how it goes
BTW . . . .Check to see if your light bulb is still good.
As I would expect at least a short dim glow on initial turn on, with those initially fully discharged electrolytic caps pulling a bit of power.
73's de Edd
[ Y'awl ] . . . you all . . .all of you . . . just had to use some "Texas" talk for creating the proper effect, as use of . . . " bloomin' bloody blokes" just wouldn't have quite cut it in my part of the world . . . Pod'nah.
Sure hope it gets thru the "censors"
.
Sir pharaon . . . . . . .
Thought process A . . . . .
I am referencing to my post # 17 where I supplied tandem pictures of the board . . . one area that I caught that was in error was the diode, which we recently covered, that is being mounted flat on the board.
That was being because I was NOT standing on my head and crossing my eyes, therefore I erroneously labeled that diode as D2.
In reality it is being D5.
I then trace it down and see that its circuit function is being a unidirectional steering diode from the power transistor collector that then feeds into 330 ohm parallel pair of SM resistors, then they feed into a ceramic capacitor . . .unseen . . . .but probably .001 thru .01.
Their summed final function, is for spike suppression for that transistor.
The D5 MIC branded diode out of Shanghai is a RL207 . . . . and as Sir Steve noted . . . . is being a 1KV @ 2A diode.
I would thereby basically equate it as being a 2A "1N4007"
On the bottom photo of your # 37 post, I can now see that the two vertical stacked diodes are D7 and D9 , if I ever have to refer to them later.
Thought B . . . . .
In looking at all of the 4 FWB diodes D1----D4 I see no polarity error on all of your installs of the four diodes, nor do I see any reversed polarity installs on C1 or C2 capacitors .
Determined Operation Facts:
The Full AC line voltage comes in and enters the FWB and that first "problem" electrolytic " C1 should have probably up to 340 VDC being generated by it with no loading.
That level of DC then passes down the boards foil paths and then passes each polarity through the tandem wound ferrite inductor for AC incoming and outgoing "trash" filtering.
So, that almost same level of DC, goes into C2 for its further DC filtering action, and then on to feed the power transistor.
You tell us that D1---4 are 1N4007's which I usually consider as basically being bullet proof, unless being HEAVILY current overloaded, or subjected to high voltage , and that 1KV is a very HIGH wall to jump to.
Last consideration is the exception for nearby lightning hits.
And from my VERY first view of one photo of yours and a rework of it, to submit as my reference tandem board photos, you can see how I had reconstructed that area to show the other half of the "Spear" spark gap that you presently have, with its foil vaporized away.
Explained and constructed herewith is THIS UNITS probable failure mode:
That spark gap sits there with adequate spacing of its "Spear" points, so as to not be affected by upper power line input voltage fluctuations.
Now a direct or VERY close lightning hit to the AC line comes in on the HOT AC line and is wanting to get to ground, and immediately sees that spark gap and its ground just on the other side then says " Hey I am such a HIGH VOLTAGE, I can jump that " so a spark over is created in the jump over path.
IMMEDIATELY those amassed 10 quintillion to the power of ? electrons of that normal 220 volt source see their chance and pass thru the SAME conductive plasma path, that is being created by the lightnings initial
high voltage jumpover.
BUT . . . . NOW . . . . that horde of electrons has enlarged that conductive plasma mass up to the level of metal melting.
Meanwhile this NOISY ruckus has awakened Mr Fuse, over to the left, and he quickly notes the situation and says HEY . . . HEY . . . HEY ! ! ! [ Y'awl ] CAN'T do that ! ! ! and he then blows, to open the AC power input circuit, thereby stopping any further damage.
In your case , looks like some of the lightnings HIGH VOLTAGE exceeded 1KV + and additionally took out a pair of your FWB rectifier diodes.
I think that you now have all back to normal, and for a short time period there, we found out that the unit was
putting out its proper regulated secondary voltage.
The only quirk now is this "C1" blowing situation.
I would now suggest the replacement of the fuse where we now have the lamp connected, with an ~ 47 through 100 ohm resistor at 1 watt.
Then pull the BROWN AC line HOT input wire from the PCB and solder connect one of the lamps RED wires to where you just removed the BROWN wire. The other now loose RED wire of the lamp gets connected to the BROWN HOT AC wire.
Now we have a constant resistance in place of the fuse, for initial capacitor charge up surge absorption, during initial powering up of the system, along with the shifting power limiting being provided by the series incandescent lamp.
You want to initially leave that bad C1 position without any capacitor there at all.
Then you power up the system and see if C2 accumulates a charge and does not "blow up" like C1 did.
If it runs give us the DC voltage measured being across C2. ( ? about 340 Vdc ? )
If all goes well with C2 , prepare to try a new C1.
I hope you do as I do, and HARVEST good used parts from electronics equipment being given to you, or from units taken from trash / dumpsters / curbs..
Thoughts:
Phar . . .
yes the 4 been replaced with 4 new diodes 1N4007
D3 = 628
D4 = 675
D1 = 577
D2 = 595
Steve . . .
Ok, so you've given me the resistance of those diodes one way, what about with the multimeter leads reversed?
I am reading THOSE diode value / readings as being Vf specs taken in diode testing mode, being expressed as millivolts.
And to me, if i did not know better, as from him telling us that they were being all new 1N4007's, I would
perceive of D1 and D2 as being fast diodes, while D3 and D4 were general purpose diodes.
BUT . . .we don't know . . . about the supply situation in ? Cairo? as these diodes might have had to be picked/
selected out from an amassed and various assortment of 1N4007's, all being stored in a plastic box.
The new ones I usually get are taped together and you just tear off the quantity needed.
In that situation, you can usually figure that there is a possibility that a great mass of them coming from the same identical wafer "parent", because, just ONE wafer yields a B U N C H ! of diodes..
When I measure them, they rarely deviate from a 10 millivolt spread of their average Vf.
( I really-really wanted to use RED 72 pitch font sizing for emphasis, but that would add on another 7
pages for its accommodation. )
I'm stopping now . . .to see how it goes
BTW . . . .Check to see if your light bulb is still good.
As I would expect at least a short dim glow on initial turn on, with those initially fully discharged electrolytic caps pulling a bit of power.
73's de Edd
[ Y'awl ] . . . you all . . .all of you . . . just had to use some "Texas" talk for creating the proper effect, as use of . . . " bloomin' bloody blokes" just wouldn't have quite cut it in my part of the world . . . Pod'nah.
Sure hope it gets thru the "censors"
.
Last edited:
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