Oil prices climb to $101.11 a barrel...

[James Arthur]

In <[email protected]>,








The way I hear it, a Cornell study made calculations assuming all
ethanol comes from corn grown on fields requiring irrigation, which is
only 15% of all American corn.

It appears to me that the valid points against biofuels are mainly on
bidding food prices higher.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

It is clear that food not grown here is going to have to be replaced--
grown elsewhere. And, those new farmers will have to clear land &
destroy habitat to do that. (I suppose that should've been 5c.:
destruction of forest / grasslands / habitat.)

Since ours is among the most productive farmland in the world, chances
are the new land will be less fertile. And so it'll take more land
area and more work and tractor fuel, on average, to yield the same
crop.

And the replacement's agricultural practices aren't likely to be as
advanced and efficient as ours in general.

What the total affect of those factors is, I haven't calculated; I was
just passing on that link (to the fellows who have, who estimate
ethanol's net effect is to double CO2 emissions).

Best wishes,
James Arthur

 

[Bill Bowden]

[...]

The problem not previously considered is that any food not grown here
has to be replaced.  That means it has to be grown somewhere else,
generally under more primitive conditions (e.g. slash & burn (shudder)
or just otherwise less efficiently).
Since the planting-for-biofuel barely yields more than it consumes in
tractor fuel, etc., to start with, any overall loss in efficiency
results in net increased emissions.  So say the paper's authors,
anyhow.
Cheers,
James Arthur

What about using kelp (seaweed) for bio-fuel? The ocean is cheap real
estate and you don't have irrigation problems, mostly just transport
problems. All you have to do is harvest the kelp and turn it into
methane gas.

-Bill

Hi Bill !
1. Trashes marine habitat
2. Seaweed *is* food.  Good, too.
3. Can't speak to the energy content or growth rate, but it's
underwater, gets a lot less sun, so I'd not expect these to be
attractive.
4. Is it easily fermented to methane?  Most things aren't.

Hey, here's an idea--why not just get *smaller* cars, and drive them
*less!*  That works with zero technical risk, current technology,
saves money and saves the planet.  ;-)

Cheers,
James- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The Japaneese are working on the problem. Apparently, they can get
about 20 milliliters of gas from a ton of seeweed.

Here's a link:

http://web-japan.org/trends/science/sci060824.html

As for smaller cars, we could just ride motorcycles that get 100 MPG.
But I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if the busses ran
every 10 minutes along all the major roads. Probably reduce the
traffic 80 percent, and we can always use a car if there's a lot to
carry, or in a hurry, or afraid of motorcycles.

-Bill

 

[Bill Bowden]

[...]

The problem not previously considered is that any food not grown here
has to be replaced.  That means it has to be grown somewhere else,
generally under more primitive conditions (e.g. slash & burn (shudder)
or just otherwise less efficiently).
Since the planting-for-biofuel barely yields more than it consumes in
tractor fuel, etc., to start with, any overall loss in efficiency
results in net increased emissions.  So say the paper's authors,
anyhow.
Cheers,
James Arthur
What about using kelp (seaweed) for bio-fuel? The ocean is cheap real
estate and you don't have irrigation problems, mostly just transport
problems. All you have to do is harvest the kelp and turn it into
methane gas.
-Bill

Hi Bill !
1. Trashes marine habitat
2. Seaweed *is* food.  Good, too.
3. Can't speak to the energy content or growth rate, but it's
underwater, gets a lot less sun, so I'd not expect these to be
attractive.
4. Is it easily fermented to methane?  Most things aren't.

Hey, here's an idea--why not just get *smaller* cars, and drive them
*less!*  That works with zero technical risk, current technology,
saves money and saves the planet.  ;-)

Cheers,
James- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The Japaneese are working on the problem. Apparently, they can get
about 20 milliliters of gas from a ton of seeweed.

Here's a link:

http://web-japan.org/trends/science/sci060824.html

As for smaller cars, we could just ride motorcycles that get 100 MPG.
But I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if the busses ran
every 10 minutes along all the major roads. Probably reduce the
traffic 80 percent, and we can always use a car if there's a lot to
carry, or in a hurry, or afraid of motorcycles.

-Bill- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Opps, that should have been Kiloliters.

-Bill

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

That's the right way to look at the transition. In 2003 the EURO makers
said they will beat US because they hated Bush's arrogant act on Iraq,

Too paranoid. Put the aluminum foil hat back on.

The EU simply never allowed itself from being distracted from running
its economies and industries based on sound fiscal principles.

they pushed to Arabic countries to use EURO as their standard currency.

Wrong. OPEC will still take dollars, or a number of other currencies.
You just get quoted a different price, depending on what the demand for
your particular currency is.

Its like the marketplace in Cuba. There's the 'domestic' peso and the
convertible peso. The exchange rate on the convertible is much better
(even than official exchange rates) and, if you are fortunate enough to
have US dollars, magically, the empty shop shelves will be filled and
you become a favored customer.

The dollar is becoming to the rest of the world what the Cuban peso is
to the US dollar.

US over-spent in every corner, that adds up to the mountain of fire.

Which mountain and what fire is that?

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Rumors of our demise have been greatly exaggerated. (with apologies
to Mark Twain)


Not likely. Old saying: "If you owe the bank $100k and can't pay,
you've got a problem. If you owe the bank $100M and can't pay, the
_bank_ has a problem."

Or just wait a while and $100M USD won't be that big a deal any more.

 

[James Arthur]

Or just wait a while and $100M USD won't be that big a deal any more.

The perfect time to repay.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[JosephKK]

The Japaneese are working on the problem. Apparently, they can get
about 20 milliliters of gas from a ton of seeweed.

Here's a link:

http://web-japan.org/trends/science/sci060824.html

As for smaller cars, we could just ride motorcycles that get 100 MPG.
But I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if the busses ran
every 10 minutes along all the major roads. Probably reduce the
traffic 80 percent, and we can always use a car if there's a lot to
carry, or in a hurry, or afraid of motorcycles.

-Bill

So, do you ride a motorcycle? Or use buses or trains? How often?

 

[JosephKK]

35 am, "Frithiof Andreas Jensen" wrote: [...]





What people *should* be watching is the price of Wheat, Soy Beans e.t.c.
because that is where trouble will come from. In the middle east, India and
Pakistan people are going from being middle class to having to choose
between heating and eating! China has enacted price controls - *ensuring* a
shortage (maybe they will shoot some farmers to get the point across that it
is well to produce at a loss)
You can thank the biofuel craze for that. Planting for burning drives
up food from supply *and* demand sides, plus all the downstream
products--and in other countries--too.
Unintended consequences:
1. Al Gore sounds alarm
2. biofuel craze
3. farmers grow feedstock for cars instead of people
Results:
4. Human misery increased
a. inflation, locally
b. food becomes unaffordable in Mexico and Haiti
c. people starve
5. Environment not improved
a. replacement food grown, appallingly inefficiently
b. net CO2 emissions increase
Best wishes,
James Arthur
So they gave the Nobel Peace Prize to a mass murderer.
John

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22902512/

Intentions are fine, but one has to consider one's actions carefully.
"Activists" sometimes fall a little short in this department.

I don't know who actually said it, and that means we give it to Ben
Franklin:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." -- BF

I think that Dante said that, and he copied it from Epictitus.

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under
robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber
baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be
satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us
without end, for they do so with the approval of their own
conscience." - C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock

Now if you had only read and understood that book.

 

[JosephKK]

May I disagree with you?



...Jim Thompson

Just to help us understand, give us some Mencken quotes.

 

[MooseFET]

Too paranoid. Put the aluminum foil hat back on.

The EU simply never allowed itself from being distracted from running
its economies and industries based on sound fiscal principles.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Time's fun when you're having flies. -- Kermit the Frog


Wrong. OPEC will still take dollars, or a number of other currencies.
You just get quoted a different price, depending on what the demand for
your particular currency is.

Look up a dictionary for a term "Standard" Is the Dollar right now the
standard Currency of the world Dummy ? Go to Ebay, check out HongKong
items, they require EURO or Austrilian Dollar. Don't make a shit out of
yourself Stupid.

 

[MooseFET]

Or just wait a while and $100M USD won't be that big a deal any more.

Right now $500 is no big deal. At a restaurant I paid a $100 for dinner
for 3. It used to be $35. You stupid kid have no experience in life, don't
try to be an expert Fucking Jerk.

 

[MooseFET]

[...]





The problem not previously considered is that any food not grown here
has to be replaced. That means it has to be grown somewhere else,
generally under more primitive conditions (e.g. slash & burn (shudder)
or just otherwise less efficiently).
Since the planting-for-biofuel barely yields more than it consumes in
tractor fuel, etc., to start with, any overall loss in efficiency
results in net increased emissions. So say the paper's authors,
anyhow.
Cheers,
James Arthur
What about using kelp (seaweed) for bio-fuel? The ocean is cheap real
estate and you don't have irrigation problems, mostly just transport
problems. All you have to do is harvest the kelp and turn it into
methane gas.
-Bill
Hi Bill !
1. Trashes marine habitat
2. Seaweed *is* food. Good, too.
3. Can't speak to the energy content or growth rate, but it's
underwater, gets a lot less sun, so I'd not expect these to be
attractive.
4. Is it easily fermented to methane? Most things aren't.

Hey, here's an idea--why not just get *smaller* cars, and drive them
*less!* That works with zero technical risk, current technology,
saves money and saves the planet. ;-)

Cheers,
James- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The Japaneese are working on the problem. Apparently, they can get
about 20 milliliters of gas from a ton of seeweed.

Here's a link:

http://web-japan.org/trends/science/sci060824.html

As for smaller cars, we could just ride motorcycles that get 100 MPG.
But I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if the busses ran
every 10 minutes along all the major roads. Probably reduce the
traffic 80 percent, and we can always use a car if there's a lot to
carry, or in a hurry, or afraid of motorcycles.

-Bill

So, do you ride a motorcycle? Or use buses or trains? How often?

Don't warn him, let him get hurt and let him find the truth the hard way. I
already checked with the motorcyclists. They said they're getting 28-30MPG
on highway. There is no such thing 100MPG motorcycle.

America loves to jump to conclusion on everything from Economy to WDM's.
This time you're going to get hurt badly.

 

[JosephKK]

Hey Dave you are already right there, depending on how you look at it.

($15/b * 700%)/100 = $105/b

PS. Every one of you are being affected except me and the one I have chosen
to help.


...Jim Thompson

What a blazing idiot. You are so obvious from the content of your
forgeries. Who has to look at the headers any more. Go away forever.

 

[JosephKK]

That's the right way to look at the transition. In 2003 the EURO makers
said they will beat US because they hated Bush's arrogant act on Iraq, they
pushed to Arabic countries to use EURO as their standard currency. US
over-spent in every corner, that adds up to the mountain of fire.


...Jim Thompson

You sure as heck don't know the real Jim Thompson do you

 

[JosephKK]

Rumors of our demise have been greatly exaggerated. (with apologies
to Mark Twain)


Not likely. Old saying: "If you owe the bank $100k and can't pay,
you've got a problem. If you owe the bank $100M and can't pay, the
_bank_ has a problem."

Cheers,
James Arthur

That is part of the issue with the mortgage crisis, and the reason for
the bank bail outs. They have been in the news a little. Almost 100
Billion dollars so far.

 

[Martin Brown]

In <eaf758ca-95b5-45d3-8456-7db843f12e33@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
James Arthur wrote:



I don't see 5b being true. The food plants is are replaced from carbon
already in the environment. If this achieves any reduction in consumption
in fossil fuels, then it achieves a decrease in transfer of carbon from
the lithosphere to the atmosphere, biosphere and hydrosphere.

Only if you don't slash and burn pristine rain forest to grow your new
fuel and food which is what is happening in many places at present. You
lose on both sides of the equation, burning the forest and no longer
having it there to do photosynthesis. By comparison the crops don't fix
as much CO2 and the poor soil quickly degrades without the forest
canopy.

The economics of biofuel are questionable at best - some schemes
actually use more energy from fossil fuel to cultivate and process the
crop it than is yielded by the final product. You might as well not
bother.

When we can turn straw and wood waste into alcohol for fuel then we will
have something useful, but turning grain into fuel is certifiable.

Regards.

 

[bz]

Don't warn him, let him get hurt and let him find the truth the hard
way. I already checked with the motorcyclists. They said they're
getting 28-30MPG on highway. There is no such thing 100MPG motorcycle.

America loves to jump to conclusion on everything from Economy to WDM's.
This time you're going to get hurt badly.

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG Main.html


--
bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected]

 

[bz]

Don't warn him, let him get hurt and let him find the truth the hard
way. I already checked with the motorcyclists. They said they're
getting 28-30MPG on highway.

They must be driving monster hogs.

There is no such thing 100MPG motorcycle.

Wrong. 100 MPG is very doable now.

The BMW Isetta (a small 4 wheeled car that looks kind of like a pregnant
roller skate, the whole front opens, many think it is a three wheeler
because the back wheels are very close together.) that I drove in college
in the 1960's got about 50 mpg. The GAS tank "held" 1 gallon [with a 1
gallon reserve available via a valve as there was no gas gauge]. Top speed
was about 55 mph, downhill with a tail wind.

The XK120 Jag that I had only got about 8 mpg. It would go a bit faster
than the Isetta.

America loves to jump to conclusion on everything from Economy to WDM's.
This time you're going to get hurt badly.

--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap

 

[MooseFET]

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG Main.html


--
bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected]

You haven't finish your school yet, so don't preach, wait until you gained
experience first. Motor cycles can only contain 4 gallons of fuel. Do a
research with the Motorcycle NewsGroup and come back dummy.

 

[Richard Henry]

So why didn't the petrol price go up 700% since oil was $15 back in
1999?
As you say, the reasons are many, but one thing is for sure, petrol
prices have had very little in the way of linear correlation with oil
price.

Dave.

The popular price per barrel quoted in the news is the spot market
price, and ignores the oil refined within vertically-integrated
companies and oil delivered under long-term, fixed-price contracts.