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Winding layered coils

A

Adam Hamilton

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi

I was always taught that when winding a second layer onto the coil that you
bring the wire back to that start and then wind the second layer otherwise
the magnetic field would be cancelled. I can't see that it would cancel the
magnetic field because the magnetic field lines of the second coiled layer
would still be pointing in the same direction as the first coiled layer.

Thanks

Adam Hamilton
 
J

JackShephard

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi

I was always taught that when winding a second layer onto the coil that you
bring the wire back to that start and then wind the second layer otherwise
the magnetic field would be cancelled. I can't see that it would cancel the
magnetic field because the magnetic field lines of the second coiled layer
would still be pointing in the same direction as the first coiled layer.

Thanks

Adam Hamilton

As long as your turns are all in the same direction, they ALL count.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adam said:
Hi

I was always taught that when winding a second layer onto the coil that you
bring the wire back to that start and then wind the second layer otherwise
the magnetic field would be cancelled.

Of course not.

If you're winding clockwise at the start, then all turns in that direction
count.

There are other reasons for using layers though.

Graham
 
W

Winfield

Jan 1, 1970
0
JackShephard said:
As long as your turns are all in the same direction, they
ALL count.

Correct. The only benefit I see from doing it as Adam
was taught would be that the maximum voltage difference
between the winding layers would be the voltage developed
on a single layer, rather than twice that, like the
conventional winding scheme. This may be an issue for high-
voltage coils - I've made coils for up to 25kV, but have
found it more practical to add a layer of Kapton tape,
rather than suffer the lump in the winding for the return
wire. Also, a simple halving of the maximum layer-layer
voltage is often insufficient, and tape is preferred. In
fact, sometimes even tape can't easily handle the voltages
encountered, and I've found a banked winding approach to
be effective. I see from Terman's 1943 Radio Engineer's
Handbook that this method was known from way back when.
A friend makes coils to 50kV and he uses a type of banked
winding approach, with each coil portion wound in its own
section of a custom-machined bobbin.
 
D

default

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi

I was always taught that when winding a second layer onto the coil that you
bring the wire back to that start and then wind the second layer otherwise
the magnetic field would be cancelled. I can't see that it would cancel the
magnetic field because the magnetic field lines of the second coiled layer
would still be pointing in the same direction as the first coiled layer.

Thanks

Adam Hamilton
Out of curiosity who teaches that?

You keep the turns going in the same direction and the current flow
and it doesn't matter where you start or finish.

Two layers can be wound with starts on one side of the form and
finishes on the other - both wound in the same direction and the two
starts and two finishes connected together for more current handling .
.. . maybe that was the idea they were getting across?
 
A

Adam Hamilton

Jan 1, 1970
0
JackShephard said:
As long as your turns are all in the same direction, they ALL count.

Thankyou Jack.

Looking at my original post, I kinda left out the actual question which was
can I wind the first layer and then wind the second layer starting from the
end of the first. Your answer did in fact answer my question.

Adam Hamilton
 
J

JackShephard

Jan 1, 1970
0
Divide breakdown voltage of the mag wire by your volts per turn, and
come up with a maximum turns per layer number. I would actually cut that
number back by at least 15%.

We used to wind 800 turn secondaries, and the max turns per layer we
would use was around 60.

Another important thing in multi-layer secondary winding is to refrain
from "scatter winding", which means do not wind a layer chaotically. One
should wind evenly across the face of the bobbin (for more than a few
reasons), or previous layer, then place the transformer tape over that
layer. It should appear flat. Do NOT stretch the tape. Also, keep the
start of the layer turns and the finish INBOARD on the winding face at
least half a mm. This keeps the start or finish turn of one layer
becoming proximal to an underlying layer or one above it.

Yes. There is no reason to reverse turns direction on any winding,
unless you want to degrade performance, and that should never be a goal.
Correct. The only benefit I see from doing it as Adam
was taught would be that the maximum voltage difference
between the winding layers would be the voltage developed
on a single layer, rather than twice that, like the
conventional winding scheme.

On a scatter wind where all turns are on the same layer, the final turn
is many volts away from the first, so a breach can occur between them.
This is the whole reason a good xfmr shop winds high turns count
secondaries (or primaries) on multiple layers, each of which are
segregated by insulator media.
This may be an issue for high-
voltage coils - I've made coils for up to 25kV, but have
found it more practical to add a layer of Kapton tape,
rather than suffer the lump in the winding for the return
wire.

There is no lump if the method used is right. The tape is needed to
keep turns away from each other. One winds across and back until the max
turns per layer of the designer are met, and then a turn of tape is added
AS the wire continues turning about the bobbin. Then the next layer's
turns get stacked right on the underlying layer, and there was no
cross-over or bump of any kind. Turns can start at the "bottom" or "top"
of a bobbin segment. It doesn't matter. The only thing that does is the
direction of the turns.
Also, a simple halving of the maximum layer-layer
voltage is often insufficient, and tape is preferred.

Tape doesn't seal off layer edges and should not be relied upon to do
so. It only separates layer faces. Keep turns inboard a bit to increase
creepage distances, and always vacuum impregnate an HV design in varnish
or at the very least, potting compound. That is, of course, unless it is
an oil bath design.
In
fact, sometimes even tape can't easily handle the voltages
encountered, and I've found a banked winding approach to
be effective.

If it is too high, a segmented bobbin is required. I posted a picture in
a.b.s.e a couple weeks back that one troll jumped all over, but it does
perfectly show a proper EHV xfmr (miniature low power) that has about 5
bobbin segments, each with nearly 300 turns, which is pushing the limits
of the mag wire. I'll post it again.
I see from Terman's 1943 Radio Engineer's
Handbook that this method was known from way back when.
A friend makes coils to 50kV and he uses a type of banked
winding approach, with each coil portion wound in its own
section of a custom-machined bobbin.

Yes. We had many customs made, and another easy way to do it is to
have G10 or FR4 bobbin parts made and epoxy them up yourself.

Start with off the shelf G10/FR4 tube, and get discs made for the bobbin
segment separators out of non-clad flat sheet stock It can be milled
just like a PCB design, and popped out from little perfs.

We even took an off the shelf bobbin, cut off one face (end), and added
discs to it, and then replaced the end we cut off. It really does work
well. I actually have some pics on one of these old hard drives here
somewhere.
 
T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Correct. The only benefit I see from doing it as Adam
was taught would be that the maximum voltage difference
between the winding layers would be the voltage developed
on a single layer, rather than twice that, like the
conventional winding scheme. This may be an issue for high-
voltage coils - I've made coils for up to 25kV, but have
found it more practical to add a layer of Kapton tape,
rather than suffer the lump in the winding for the return
wire. Also, a simple halving of the maximum layer-layer
voltage is often insufficient, and tape is preferred. In
fact, sometimes even tape can't easily handle the voltages
encountered, and I've found a banked winding approach to
be effective. I see from Terman's 1943 Radio Engineer's
Handbook that this method was known from way back when.
A friend makes coils to 50kV and he uses a type of banked
winding approach, with each coil portion wound in its own
section of a custom-machined bobbin.
That sounds like a pi-wound coil for a radio, except there the goal is
to reduce capacitance rather than prevent spark over. Reducing the
voltage from one wire to the next should reduce both capacitance and
spark over, however.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
B

Bill Beaty

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi

I was always taught that when winding a second layer onto the coil that you
bring the wire back to that start and then wind the second layer otherwise
the magnetic field would be cancelled. I can't see that it would cancel the
magnetic field because the magnetic field lines of the second coiled layer
would still be pointing in the same direction as the first coiled layer.


With *toroid* inductors, if you wind a single layer, you've
accidentally created a 1-turn loop going around the donut. If you
instead keep going and wind a second layer back along the first, this
1-turn loop is cancelled out. When winding toroids, it's a good idea
to use an even number of layers, and go back and forth. For high
power high frequency toroid transformers, you DON'T want a 1-turn loop
which spews b-field out into the world. For small toroid inductors,
you don't want a 1-turn loop that couples signals from outside.


(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
beaty chem.washington.edu Research Engineer
billb eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74
206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
 
A

Adam Hamilton

Jan 1, 1970
0
Out of curiosity who teaches that?
My electronics teacher at college said this and searching the internet also
showed the wire being brougt back to the beginning before winding the next
layer. I asked this question because when I followed the magnetic field
lines by winding the second layer from the end, they still pointed in the
same direction. I thought that there maybe some advantage to bringing back
the wire to the start.

Thanks for all your help everyone.

Adam Hamilton
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I was always taught that when winding a second layer onto the coil that
you bring the wire back to that start and then wind the second layer
otherwise the magnetic field would be cancelled.
....

Whoever told you this is an idiot.

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
My electronics teacher at college said this and searching the internet
also showed the wire being brougt back to the beginning before winding the
next layer. I asked this question because when I followed the magnetic
field lines by winding the second layer from the end, they still pointed
in the same direction. I thought that there maybe some advantage to
bringing back the wire to the start.

The advantage is to the professor, who has tenure, and teaches idiotic
crap to the students so that they won't threaten his position when they
grow up.

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

JackShephard

Jan 1, 1970
0
The advantage is to the professor, who has tenure, and teaches idiotic
crap to the students so that they won't threaten his position when they
grow up.

You're such a fucking idiot.
 
Y

YD

Jan 1, 1970
0
Late at night, by candle light, "Adam Hamilton"
My electronics teacher at college said this and searching the internet also
showed the wire being brougt back to the beginning before winding the next
layer. I asked this question because when I followed the magnetic field
lines by winding the second layer from the end, they still pointed in the
same direction. I thought that there maybe some advantage to bringing back
the wire to the start.

Thanks for all your help everyone.

Adam Hamilton

Just take apart any old relay coil or something like it and see for
yourself. You do have it right, it's the direction of the current in
all the layers that set up the field, not the starting point in each
of them.

- YD.
 
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