Rigol oscilloscope prices have sky-rocketed!

[Fred Abse]

I guess i'll never understand big
business.

Don't let it worry you, most of the people running big business don't
understand it either ;-)

 

[Tom]

Sounds more like parallel importing and selling at a lower price than the
local dealer, rather than 'dumping'. That's not illegal in USAor NZ. Dunno
about Oz.

It's probably legal in Australia. I know of of at least one pro photo dealer who sells Canon and Nikon SLRs and equipment from two sources. They source their stuff through legal distributors as well as the do import themselves, many items have two prices and they do explain pitfalls of buying a cheaper one. It's nice to have a choice when you understand what you are getting into.

Tom

 

[Jamie]

Don't let it worry you, most of the people running big business don't
understand it either ;-)

Well, today one of the EE's in the shop left work unexpectedly
, shortly after, the IT guy said he needed to get into
his office because he was told to extract his HD "C:" drive.

Our EE friend didn't return from where ever it was, he went today.

Maybe he didn't understand big business either?

We're not exactly sure what happen at this point, but I told the rest
of my colleagues, this is a good time to start a rumor! We'll find out
tomorrow, I am sure.

 

[JosephKK]

Ouch ! That is one hell of a transformer

Naw, at operating frequency of 50/60 Hz that is only about 2000 VA.

 

[JosephKK]

If you have to do it - try using a pair of 240 - 110v / 48v / 24v
units back to back or other matching voltage low voltage surplus
transformers.

I did this 25 odd years back using 2 surplus (free) 240v to 24v @15a
units back to back, and it worked fine for many years. It wont be as
efficient as a single purpose designed transformer, and will be
heavier and run hotter.

Remembering that there will be 2 lots of losses, and that normal
transformers aren't designed to be used "backwards", you will NOT get
the full rated VA out of this arrangement, it will cost more in
electricity use.



I wouldn't even contemplate that idea of putting microwave HT windings
back to back - it would be an absolutely totally and instantly LETHAL
device if anything went wrong, not just an irritating "ZAP".
Please, Please Please do NOT muck about with these things. these
voltages (remember that unlike TV EHT supplies these oven transformers
have plenty of current behind them) can even punch through damaged or
underrated insulated tool handles and to your hand, delivering a
lethal shock !


If there was a breakdown to the output winding, which could possibly
happen with old parts - specially ones from faulty microwaves pulled
from rubbish dumps, or that had mouse / insect infestations - I would
hate to think what could possibly happen to anyone or anything
connected on the 240v isolated "secondary" side.

If you didnt join the 2 HT windings together in a proper way, and
insulate properly the connection point could even arc, starting a
fire.



Either physically remove the HT winding first if you are going to muck
around with it, or better still, just do yourself a favour and chuck
the microwave oven transformer (and the modification idea) in the
rubbish bin before someone gets killed.

Not that i recommend that inexperienced persons try such, i do not.
Just the same, while i recognize the potential problems, i have no
unreasoning fear of them. Nor am i such a nanny type as to insist
on trying to prevent anyone from doing something odd but useful.

Thus i find you to be quite an obnoxious prunt.

 

[JosephKK]

On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 18:55:14 -0600, krw

On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 16:32:43 -0800, Jon Kirwan

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 09:33:06 +1100, "David L. Jones"

[email protected] wrote:
Greegor wrote:
David:
You said the seller wrote to somebody:
<quote>
"Hello, Please don't worry, the problem is, an another seller has
complaint by ebay that i'm selling the rigol oscilloscopes at a
dumping price"
He then offered to complete the original low price transaction
outside of ebay.
Has it occurred to you that this is exactly the kind of story
that an ejected SCAMMER would tell to rope in a few
more suckers to send them money outside
of the aggressive protection of eBay/Paypal?
Could be, but not my problem, I'm just passing on what was said.
Buyer-beware, as always.
If you are worried then buy from DealExtreme or some other known
non-ebay seller.
Remember, this is not a one-off seller thing, dozens and dozens of
(legitimate) ebay sellers of this scope have suddenly dissapeared.
There is somethign else going on. I have not heard of a single
case of anyone being scammed on a Rigol scope, and I can tell you
I get a lot of feedback on this issue though my blog. Doesn't mean
it's safe of course.
How would you know if the seller is a SCAMMER or not?
Err, not too hard. If the seller has a rep of selling the samegear
previously (ebay and other forum history can show that), and most
of the sellers have suddenly disappeared (presumably) due to ebay
pulling their auctions for some competive(?) reason, then it's
more probable than not the seller is not a scammer, they are just
caught up in whatever is happening
here.
Dave.
--
---------------------------------------------
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog &
Podcast:http://www.eevblog.com
Ebay exists to collect fees. They don't care who is selling theitem
as long as they get their cut. I suspect Rigol stopped supplying
these dealers. They have a right not to sell to any dealer they
don't like.
Manufacturers *are* able to excert pressure on them somehow. A
friend of mine came home from the USA with 3 new PS3's just after
they were released there. He put them up on ebay, but the listing
was removed since it was "illegal" to sell them.

--

John Devereux
I'd like to see the paper trail on this. I think there is more tothe
story. I see stuff sold on ebay that I know has serious security
concerns regarding export. [There is a New Mexico vendor that is
pulling gear out of Los Alamos.] I see copyrighted literature puton
CDs and sold, such as those electronics manuals that the manufacturer
provides for free but arseholes put on CD to sell to stupid customers.
I just don't believe ebay polices their sales to the degree you are
inferring.
Ebay do nothing until someone complains. Then the bigger you are, the more
your complaint is taken seriously.
Ebay like to do stuff that shows the industries and government that they
care about the law and that they are in control, when in fact theydon't
give a toss because they make money on everything of course. But they know
they have to be seen to be doing something at least some of the time.
Sounds exactly like credit card companies.
I love credit card companies. They let me use their money and give me
free money for the privilege. They also make it hand to buy stuff
online. What's not to like?

I do the same thing, just not VISA or MC, anymore. Problem
is, they still make a lot of money on fraud. For VISA, for
example, credit is issued by some bank or credit union ...
not some big VISA-in-the-sky. When there is a dispute, it's
between you and those who issued the credit and VISA makes
money no matter what takes place. So everything makes them
money, fraud included. Hence, no motivation to provide
helpful services like, for instance, the address and location
of some vendor you are certain is fraudulent. They pretty
much don't care.

American Express is a little different. They both issue the
credit _and_ do the transaction work. So they retain a
personal, financial interest in fraud cases. And they seem
to demonstrate that difference, at least to me.

I was thinking about trying Amex again myself. Problem is, many dealers
don't seem to accept them these days. Possibly because of their high fees.

Yes, that was the exact same story that kept me from using
them, as well. Now, I'm simply fed up with VISA profiting
from fraud and not caring one way or another; and my local
bank pretending to be impotent. Amex wins, hands down, in
cases like this -- probably because it is all under one roof
instead of broken up with each hand washing the other.

Jon

In some arenas this is called externalization of costs. If you can
push the cost of some part of doing business to the outside of your
organization, your profits go up. (And in this case your liability
[read insurance costs as well] goes down.)

 

[JosephKK]

Mostly they use a slang expression: "Es ist Pott wie Deckel". Pretty
much not-translateable

The closest translation i can propose is "cover the whole pot".

 

[Jon Kirwan]

Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 18:55:14 -0600, krw

On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 16:32:43 -0800, Jon Kirwan

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 09:33:06 +1100, "David L. Jones"

[email protected] wrote:
Greegor wrote:
David:
You said the seller wrote to somebody:
<quote>
"Hello, Please don't worry, the problem is, an another seller has
complaint by ebay that i'm selling the rigol oscilloscopes at a
dumping price"
He then offered to complete the original low price transaction
outside of ebay.
Has it occurred to you that this is exactly the kind of story
that an ejected SCAMMER would tell to rope in a few
more suckers to send them money outside
of the aggressive protection of eBay/Paypal?
Could be, but not my problem, I'm just passing on what was said.
Buyer-beware, as always.
If you are worried then buy from DealExtreme or some other known
non-ebay seller.
Remember, this is not a one-off seller thing, dozens and dozens of
(legitimate) ebay sellers of this scope have suddenly dissapeared.
There is somethign else going on. I have not heard of a single
case of anyone being scammed on a Rigol scope, and I can tell you
I get a lot of feedback on this issue though my blog. Doesn't mean
it's safe of course.
How would you know if the seller is a SCAMMER or not?
Err, not too hard. If the seller has a rep of selling the same gear
previously (ebay and other forum history can show that), and most
of the sellers have suddenly disappeared (presumably) due to ebay
pulling their auctions for some competive(?) reason, then it's
more probable than not the seller is not a scammer, they are just
caught up in whatever is happening
here.
Dave.
--
---------------------------------------------
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog &
Podcast:http://www.eevblog.com
Ebay exists to collect fees. They don't care who is selling the item
as long as they get their cut. I suspect Rigol stopped supplying
these dealers. They have a right not to sell to any dealer they
don't like.
Manufacturers *are* able to excert pressure on them somehow. A
friend of mine came home from the USA with 3 new PS3's just after
they were released there. He put them up on ebay, but the listing
was removed since it was "illegal" to sell them.

--

John Devereux
I'd like to see the paper trail on this. I think there is more to the
story. I see stuff sold on ebay that I know has serious security
concerns regarding export. [There is a New Mexico vendor that is
pulling gear out of Los Alamos.] I see copyrighted literature put on
CDs and sold, such as those electronics manuals that the manufacturer
provides for free but arseholes put on CD to sell to stupid customers.
I just don't believe ebay polices their sales to the degree you are
inferring.
Ebay do nothing until someone complains. Then the bigger you are, the more
your complaint is taken seriously.
Ebay like to do stuff that shows the industries and government that they
care about the law and that they are in control, when in fact they don't
give a toss because they make money on everything of course. But they know
they have to be seen to be doing something at least some of the time.
Sounds exactly like credit card companies.
I love credit card companies. They let me use their money and give me
free money for the privilege. They also make it hand to buy stuff
online. What's not to like?

I do the same thing, just not VISA or MC, anymore. Problem
is, they still make a lot of money on fraud. For VISA, for
example, credit is issued by some bank or credit union ...
not some big VISA-in-the-sky. When there is a dispute, it's
between you and those who issued the credit and VISA makes
money no matter what takes place. So everything makes them
money, fraud included. Hence, no motivation to provide
helpful services like, for instance, the address and location
of some vendor you are certain is fraudulent. They pretty
much don't care.

American Express is a little different. They both issue the
credit _and_ do the transaction work. So they retain a
personal, financial interest in fraud cases. And they seem
to demonstrate that difference, at least to me.

I was thinking about trying Amex again myself. Problem is, many dealers
don't seem to accept them these days. Possibly because of their high fees.

Yes, that was the exact same story that kept me from using
them, as well. Now, I'm simply fed up with VISA profiting
from fraud and not caring one way or another; and my local
bank pretending to be impotent. Amex wins, hands down, in
cases like this -- probably because it is all under one roof
instead of broken up with each hand washing the other.

Jon

In some arenas this is called externalization of costs. If you can
push the cost of some part of doing business to the outside of your
organization, your profits go up. (And in this case your liability
[read insurance costs as well] goes down.)

Sounds like a phrase they'd use, true enough. This whole
thing came up over some very small fraudulent charges made by
"random" named companies on one VISA credit card. They
started out last March and we discovered them around the last
day of August. (We check the bill each and every month but
these were "small" charges of about $29.99 and we do purchase
toys and other items that we give away at schools which would
easily "look" like this kind of purchase.

Our local VISA issuing savings and loan does employ software
that allows them to "detect" unusual charges and they _do_
call us, on occasion, when an expense triggers their AI.
However, these expenses slipped by their own detection, as
well. We caught the pattern once a pattern was in evidence
(roughly 5 or 6 such charges from 3 different company names)
and reported it.

Our S&L took the position with us that they'd cover things 60
days before the early September date we reported them. But
not before that, hiding behind a 60-day reporting requirement
they wanted us to accept. (We won't, of course, and are
pursing this in ways that I believe will eventually lead to
the S&L making us whole.)

After calls to our State's Attorney General office and
various people within our S&L's own system, the big VISA in
the sky, and others as well, we eventually began to learn
some things.

(1) Our S&L issues the credit, VISA does not. The credit
line is between us and our S&L. If they have to make us
whole, the one losing the money isn't the big VISA in the sky
but our local S&L. It comes out of their pocket, so they are
motivated by that fact to refuse to pay more than necessary.
The big VISA in the sky really doesn't care. It's no skin
off of them, either way. They make it on moving transactions
so it's all good to them, no matter what.

(2) Our S&L does NOT have access to things like addresses
and so on regarding companies that appear on the statements
from VISA. There's a code number and often a phone number
that can be passed on. Worse, at least with my own local
S&L, their staff is uniquely unwilling to work hard in trying
to ferret out information for us. They told us that anything
going back earlier than 60 days was _our_ problem. Okay. But
how do I pursue it? They can't give me street addresses or
even necessarily the State where the company is principally
located. And they won't even talk about it. If they have a
phone number handy, they give me that and no more. And they
don't care to do more, as far as I could gather in my
conversations.

(3) American Express both issues the credit _and_ handles
transactions in the system. As such, they have FULL VIEW and
they are also _motivated_ by more than the simple fact of
possibly losing some cash if they make us whole. They _also_
want the transaction money, which makes their motivations a
little more nuanced and less STARKLY one-sided. Experience
shows me that they are pretty good, by comparison, when
dealing with situations like this. They can actually _act_
to make things very difficult on the other end of the
transaction. Unlike my local S&L which apparently has no
teeth, at all, in situations like this.

VISA and MC have been dropped and I'll not use them again, as
long as American Express continues to provide a more holistic
approach to these kinds of issues. At least I have a chance
to make a good argument with them.

By the way, the amount I have at risk is trivial. We are
talking about maybe $120 total. I won't notice the loss for
a split second. However, my __behavior__ has certainly been
changed by this recent event. And my local S&L (because of
other changes I intend making with investments) as well as
VISA and MC will likely lose more out of this than the tiny
amounts involved, just taking me alone into account and no
one else. I'm certain it will cost them more in lost profits
than was at stake here.

Jon

 

[Jon Kirwan]

The closest translation i can propose is "cover the whole pot".

I think the terms Pott and Deckel are used together in German
more like "made for one another" is in Engish. Something
like "wie Pott und Deckel" to mean "well-suited for each
other." So 'wie' here is more like the English word "as" or
"alike" than the denoted translation into "how."

The phase "Pott wie Deckel" then looks to me more like some
kind of "all the same as" phrase. So the result is then more
like "it is all the same as." As I read it, anyway. And
thanks very much, Jörg, for the idiom!

This is the kind of thing I could _never_ produce on my own,
lacking experience. But when I _read_ it from someone else
like Jörg writing it, I can dredge up some past training
about it and seem to gather it. I can read German rather
somewhat more fluently than I can produce the darned stuff! I
sure wish I had someone local to train with. I wonder if
Jörg needs a personal butler for a while!

Jon

 

[Jon Kirwan]

<snip>
I think the terms Pott and Deckel are used together in German
more like "made for one another" is in Engish. Something
like "wie Pott und Deckel" to mean "well-suited for each
other."
<snip>

I should have added some English examples that illustrate how
Pott and Deckel are, when used in "wie Pott und Deckel":

- like Horse and Carriage
- like peas in a pod
- hand and glove

Jon

 

[Joerg]

I think the terms Pott and Deckel are used together in German
more like "made for one another" is in Engish. Something
like "wie Pott und Deckel" to mean "well-suited for each
other." So 'wie' here is more like the English word "as" or
"alike" than the denoted translation into "how."

Yep, exactly.

The phase "Pott wie Deckel" then looks to me more like some
kind of "all the same as" phrase. So the result is then more
like "it is all the same as." As I read it, anyway. And
thanks very much, Jörg, for the idiom!

There are many more and which one is used depends on the region. For
example, in Bavaria they'd say "gehupft wie gesprungen".

This is the kind of thing I could _never_ produce on my own,
lacking experience. But when I _read_ it from someone else
like Jörg writing it, I can dredge up some past training
about it and seem to gather it. I can read German rather
somewhat more fluently than I can produce the darned stuff! I
sure wish I had someone local to train with.

That's the only way to learn it, either in the country or in a group of
people where you are sort of forced to speak it and the exposure to
other languages is zero for hours at a time. This is how I learned Dutch
but now it has degraded to where I can read and understand. Writing has
become horrible and speaking usually comes back after 2-3 beers.

... I wonder if Jörg needs a personal butler for a while!

No, but a brewmaster

Some day I'll brew again. But tonight we'll first bake bread on the
barbecue. Yummy!

 

[keithr]

It's probably legal in Australia. I know of of at least one pro photo
dealer who sells Canon and Nikon SLRs and equipment from two sources.
They source their stuff through legal distributors as well as the do
import themselves, many items have two prices and they do explain
pitfalls of buying a cheaper one. It's nice to have a choice when you
understand what you are getting into.

Tom

An official importer can fight a grey market importer through the
copyright on the product name. they can't do much about direct imports
though.

 

[Phil Allison]

"keithratbag "

An official importer can fight a grey market importer through the
copyright on the product name.

** Product names are not covered by copyright - you ass !!

Or no-one could ever mention them in print !!!!

Corporate logos are however covered by trade mark law and copyright - but
rarely do importers have any legal rights over them.

If they did, they might be tempted to apply them to any products they like.

Been known to happen, many times.


..... Phil

 

[keithr]

"keithratbag "



** Product names are not covered by copyright - you ass !!

Or no-one could ever mention them in print !!!!

Corporate logos are however covered by trade mark law and copyright - but
rarely do importers have any legal rights over them.

If they did, they might be tempted to apply them to any products they like.

Been known to happen, many times.

Try opening a business called Apple computers and see how long it takes
for a lawyer to appear on your doorstep. Copyright and registered
business names have been used to shut down grey importers several times
in Australia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"keithratbag "

Try opening a business called Apple computers ...

** Totally irrelevant to the point -

FUCKWIT !!

Copyright and registered business names have been used to shut down grey
importers several times in Australia.

** But never once copyright on the PRODUCT NAME !!

FUCKWIT !!



..... Phil

 

[keithr]

"keithratbag "


** Totally irrelevant to the point -

FUCKWIT !!



** But never once copyright on the PRODUCT NAME !!

FUCKWIT !!



.... Phil

Well then explain how come Apple are suing the crap out of anybody
marketing a product with any name resembling iPod?

 

[Phil Allison]

"keithratbag "

Well then explain how come Apple are suing the crap out of anybody
marketing a product with any name resembling iPod?

** Not even faintly relevant to the " grey market " issue

Wot a clueless FUCKWIT !!




...... Phil

 

[Terry Dawson]

Well then explain how come Apple are suing the crap out of anybody
marketing a product with any name resembling iPod?

Trademark protection?

Terry

 

[keithr]

Are they suing the crap out of people selling second-hand iPods?

Nope, but try setting up a grey market importing business and see how
long it takes their lawyers to arrive on your door step.

 

[Phil Allison]

Nope, but try setting up a grey market importing business and see how long
it takes their lawyers to arrive on your door step.

** Yaaaaaawwwnnnn...

Yeah, the evil boogie man will get you.

ROTFL

Wot a pathetic bullshit artist.



..... Phil